Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Carighan]

Moving damage from motifs to filler is a small nerf in full uptime as PCT can’t burst as hard but it’s a buff in downtime relative to classes that can’t compensate for downtime (so everyone but PCT) because the cost benefit of moving the motifs into downtime is now higher

Correct, the correct solution is to definitely nerf all muses and most instants hard, and potentially even nerf the filler somewhat to dampen the effect you describe.

[Supersnow845]

Correct, the correct solution is to definitely nerf all muses and most instants hard, and potentially even nerf the filler somewhat to dampen the effect you describe.

A nerf of either would work

I’m personally more favourable towards a nerf of filler as it maintains PCT’s burst to filler profile better than nerfing the muses but I wouldn’t really oppose nerfing either

[Realfoxy]

^correct

Moving damage from motifs to filler is a small nerf in full uptime as PCT can’t burst as hard but it’s a buff in downtime relative to classes that can’t compensate for downtime (so everyone but PCT) because the cost benefit of moving the motifs into downtime is now higher

I see this suggestion going around, but I don't think it holds up when examining actual data.

If you look at actual logs from FRU clears, and compare them to a full uptime fight (e.g. M3S), you'll see that in practice, PCT's RGB fillers make up a greater percentage of PCT's damage in M3S compared to FRU. Go on that website and look right now. In FRU, Fire in Red is around 3.5-4%, Water in Blue is around 4.5-5%. In M3S Fire is around 4.0-4.5%, Water in Blue is around 5-6%. This is very consistent across top PCT logs.

Which makes sense, since you cast more filler during a full uptime fight. Now say that we took some of the damage from the motifs casted in a full uptime fight and spread it across the filler spells, so that PCT did the same total amount of damage. We can all agree this isn't a net buff or nerf, PCT is still the same damage relative to other jobs in uptime.

Now consider an ultimate style fight (with downtime) of the same total length. PCT would still cast the same number of motifs, but it'd end up doing LESS damage (as it's casting less filler), making it do less damage relative to other jobs compared to before our hypothetical change. So our hypothetical change to PCT has kept it the same in UPTIME, but made it relatively WEAKER in a fight with DOWNTIME.

People seem to forget that motif painting in downtime only mitigates some of the loss that every job gets during downtime. In a hypothetical fight where every downtime prevents you from casting, your motif cooldowns keep on ticking, to say nothing of options like swift Rainbow Drip.

TL;DR you can nerf PCT in downtime fights by nerfing its motif damage. Turning starry from a raid buff to a self buff would probably help as well.

[Supersnow845]

I see this suggestion going around, but I don't think it holds up when examining actual data.

If you look at actual logs from FRU clears, and compare them to a full uptime fight (e.g. M3S), you'll see that in practice, PCT's RGB fillers make up a greater percentage of PCT's damage in M3S compared to FRU. Go on that website and look right now. In FRU, Fire in Red is around 3.5-4%, Water in Blue is around 4.5-5%. In M3S Fire is around 4.0-4.5%, Water in Blue is around 5-6%. This is very consistent across top PCT logs.

Which makes sense, since you cast more filler during a full uptime fight. Now say that we took some of the damage from the motifs casted in a full uptime fight and spread it across the filler spells, so that PCT did the same total amount of damage. We can all agree this isn't a net buff or nerf, PCT is still the same damage relative to other jobs in uptime.

Now consider an ultimate style fight (with downtime) of the same total length. PCT would still cast the same number of motifs, but it'd end up doing LESS damage (as it's casting less filler), making it do less damage relative to other jobs compared to before our hypothetical change. So our hypothetical change to PCT has kept it the same in UPTIME, but made it relatively WEAKER in a fight with DOWNTIME.

People seem to forget that motif painting in downtime only mitigates some of the loss that every job gets during downtime. In a hypothetical fight where every downtime prevents you from casting, your motif cooldowns keep on ticking, to say nothing of options like swift Rainbow Drip.

TL;DR you can nerf PCT in downtime fights by nerfing its motif damage. Turning starry from a raid buff to a self buff would probably help as well.

But changing it right now won’t make it cast less filler than it’s currently casting in FRU, all this change would do if you are comparing it to current PCT in FRU is make the filler you gain from moving motifs into downtime worth more. This makes PCT better specifically relative to classes that can’t mitigate downtime (which coincidently is everyone but PCT) as the amount of downtime increases

All classes cast less in FRU compared to M3S but we aren’t comparing FRU to M3S, we are comparing FRU right now to FRU if PCT’s filler was worth more and it’s costless motifs were worth less damage despite their cost not changing. So the cost benefit of motif painting in downtime further biased downtime

[Realfoxy]

All classes cast less in FRU compared to M3S but we aren’t comparing FRU to M3S, we are comparing FRU right now to FRU if PCT’s filler was worth more and it’s costless motifs were worth less damage despite their cost not changing. So the cost benefit of motif painting in downtime further biased downtime

I don't think you understand. Say right now that PCT in full uptime (M3S) does 20k filler damage and 40k motif damage (numbers are made up just roll with me). Let's say we nerf PCT motifs by 5% and buff filler by 10%, then in full uptime it's going to do 22k filler and 38k motif, same amount of damage.

Then in a downtime fight of the same length, PCT is going to do 40k motif (you always cast motifs since they're strong) and 15k filler damage (we casted less filler due to downtime). If we applied the same changes as above, we do 38k motif, but only 16.5k filler, essentially a nerf to the job.

So in essence, we have a way to nerf PCT in downtime fights, without affecting its balance in full uptime! This is good, since PCT is way further ahead in downtime than in uptime!

But changing it right now won’t make it cast less filler than it’s currently casting in FRU, all this change would do if you are comparing it to current PCT in FRU is make the filler you gain from moving motifs into downtime worth more.

You lose less damage than before due to the downtime, but this matters less compared to the decreased damage from all the motifs you're casting!

Say we had a hypothetical fight with insane levels of downtime. Like, you hit the boss for 30 seconds then there's 90 seconds of trios, and this repeats. In this hypothetical fight, nerfing filler would barely affect PCT damage at all because most of your 30s uptime windows would be taken up with loads of hammer bursts!

Go and look at the actual logs for FRU. I'm not joking, open them up right now and see how much damage is coming from the filler spells people are casting. Stop thinking about "gaining filler from downtime". You're not actually making a gain. You're simply losing less damage from downtime, which is at most 3 motifs worth of casting time. It simply doesn't compare to the increased proportion of your damage that is all your motif bursts!

[Supersnow845]

I don't think you understand. Say right now that PCT in full uptime (M3S) does 20k filler damage and 40k motif damage (numbers are made up just roll with me). Let's say we nerf PCT motifs by 5% and buff filler by 10%, then in full uptime it's going to do 22k filler and 38k motif, same amount of damage.

Then in a downtime fight of the same length, PCT is going to do 40k motif (you always cast motifs since they're strong) and 15k filler damage (we casted less filler due to downtime). If we applied the same changes as above, we do 38k motif, but only 16.5k filler, essentially a nerf to the job.

So in essence, we have a way to nerf PCT in downtime fights, without affecting its balance in full uptime! This is good, since PCT is way further ahead in downtime than in uptime!



You lose less damage than before due to the downtime, but this matters less compared to the decreased damage from all the motifs you're casting!

Say we had a hypothetical fight with insane levels of downtime. Like, you hit the boss for 30 seconds then there's 90 seconds of trios, and this repeats. In this hypothetical fight, nerfing filler would barely affect PCT damage at all because most of your 30s uptime windows would be taken up with loads of hammer bursts!

Go and look at the actual logs for FRU. I'm not joking, open them up right now and see how much damage is coming from the filler spells people are casting. Stop thinking about "gaining filler from downtime". You're not actually making a gain. You're simply losing less damage from downtime, which is at most 3 motifs worth of casting time. It simply doesn't compare to the increased proportion of your damage that is all your motif bursts!

Again you aren’t comparing the correct 2 things here because you are operating under the assumption that downtime loses you filler; which is correct in a vacuum but only relevant to the discussion if you are comparing a fight with no downtime to a fight with downtime. But we aren’t doing that, we are comparing PCT in FRU right now (which already has downtime) and PCT if we implemented this change in FRU. Due to this the length of downtime exceeding the length of time you are drawing motifs is irrelevant to the discussion because the comparison is to PCT as it is right now in FRU so the amount of non actionable downtime doesn’t change. There is no loss of filler through non actionable downtime because the comparison is to the job with the same amount of non actionable downtime in the same scenario

Every motif you paint in downtime gains you 2 filler casts RELATIVE to a job that has no downtime tools. The cost of motifs in downtime is zero so by buffing filler at the expense of motifs you make PCT stronger with more downtime RELATIVE to jobs that can’t mitigate downtime because you are turning downtime into uptime and that uptime you gain has stronger filler since you buffed it than currently

[Realfoxy]

Again you aren’t comparing the correct 2 things here because you are operating under the assumption that downtime loses you filler; which is correct in a vacuum but only relevant to the discussion if you are comparing a fight with no downtime to a fight with downtime. But we aren’t doing that, we are comparing PCT in FRU right now (which already has downtime) and PCT if we implemented this change in FRU. Due to this the length of downtime exceeding the length of time you are drawing motifs is irrelevant to the discussion because the comparison is to PCT as it is right now in FRU so the amount of non actionable downtime doesn’t change. There is no loss of filler through non actionable downtime because the comparison is to the job with the same amount of non actionable downtime in the same scenario

Other job's performance is irrelevant here. We're only concerned about how well PCT does.

Let's say we change PCT so that it's filler does more damage, and nerf its motifs to compensate, so that it does the exact same damage in FRU as it did before. So by definition it's going to perform the same (or similar) in a downtime fight.

Then the question becomes, how will its performance change in a full uptime fight. Well, in full uptime, relatively MORE of your damage comes from filler than motifs, compared to FRU. Again, go check some logs and compare how the spells contribute to the total damage. So our hypothetical change has made PCT do MORE damage in full uptime.

This is a good change. This means that if we made such a change, the gap between PCT's performance in full uptime and ultimates is smaller. This means that we can apply an overall nerf to the job (that affects it equally across all fights) and not worry as much about it suddenly being worse in Savage.

[Supersnow845]

Other job's performance is irrelevant here. We're only concerned about how well PCT does.

Let's say we change PCT so that it's filler does more damage, and nerf its motifs to compensate, so that it does the exact same damage in FRU as it did before. So by definition it's going to perform the same (or similar) in a downtime fight.

Then the question becomes, how will its performance change in a full uptime fight. Well, in full uptime, relatively MORE of your damage comes from filler than motifs, compared to FRU. Again, go check some logs and compare how the spells contribute to the total damage. So our hypothetical change has made PCT do MORE damage in full uptime.

This is a good change. This means that if we made such a change, the gap between PCT's performance in full uptime and ultimates is smaller. This means that we can apply an overall nerf to the job (that affects it equally across all fights) and not worry as much about it suddenly being worse in Savage.

It’s performance relative to other classes is the only thing that matters here because if you compared PCT we it performs now in FRU and another class in how it performed in FRU and compared them both to a theoretical ultimate that has 20% more downtime than FRU then your change is a relative buff to PCT. Because if you equalise the damage between current PCT and changed PCT in FRU you are only equalising the damage in a right that has the same downtime profile as FRU

So if an ultimate came along that has more spread out downtime or more piecemeal downtime you’ve functionally massively buffed PCT because you are trying to balance it around FRU’s downtime profile, balancing it this way the potencies would come out differently for every ultimate because their downtime profiles are different

So other classes matter because this is a comparison of current PCT and thereotical changed PCT with regards to how much relatively better they are at handling downtime than jobs that can’t mitigate downtime

[Realfoxy]

It’s performance relative to other classes is the only thing that matters here because if you compared PCT we it performs now in FRU and another class in how it performed in FRU and compared them both to a theoretical ultimate that has 20% more downtime than FRU then your change is a relative buff to PCT. Because if you equalise the damage between current PCT and changed PCT in FRU you are only equalising the damage in a right that has the same downtime profile as FRU

So if an ultimate came along that has more spread out downtime or more piecemeal downtime you’ve functionally massively buffed PCT because you are trying to balance it around FRU’s downtime profile, balancing it this way the potencies would come out differently for every ultimate because their downtime profiles are different

So other classes matter because this is a comparison of current PCT and thereotical changed PCT with regards to how much relatively better they are at handling downtime than jobs that can’t mitigate downtime

There's a few things to address here.

First, why are you so concerned with performance in a hypothetical future ultimate, when I have just shown that buffing filler and nerfing motifs addresses PCT's performance in FRU, the ultimate that is the current balance problem we are having right now?

Secondly, increased downtime DOESN'T make filler more important. It makes it less important. To illustrate this, let's look at an extreme example. Let's say that Ascian ultimate consists of 30 second uptime phases, followed by three and half minutes of downtime, repeating over and over. There's so little uptime that all you have time for is a 30s burst phase followed by extremely extended downtime until it's time for burst again.

Now, in such a situation, would rather have a job with stronger burst, or would you rather have a job with stronger filler?

The issue that people, not just you, seem to be having is that you think PCT's downtime gain from painting motifs is the sole source of its imbalance, when that's not the case. At most it's 12 seconds worth of filler casts generated, assuming that downtime is enough to fully paint everything - which is also limited by the cooldowns of all your motifs as well. But during downtime you're not just painting. All the cooldowns on all your hard hitting motifs are ticking down as well. This is the other strength of PCT! The fact that so much of its damage is in its burst, which it will always be able to use, compared with a job like Black Mage that has much more damage in filler and barely any burst at all!

[Supersnow845]

There's a few things to address here.

First, why are you so concerned with performance in a hypothetical future ultimate, when I have just shown that buffing filler and nerfing motifs addresses PCT's performance in FRU, the ultimate that is the current balance problem we are having right now?

Secondly, increased downtime DOESN'T make filler more important. It makes it less important. To illustrate this, let's look at an extreme example. Let's say that Ascian ultimate consists of 30 second uptime phases, followed by three and half minutes of downtime, repeating over and over. There's so little uptime that all you have time for is a 30s burst phase followed by extremely extended downtime until it's time for burst again.

Now, in such a situation, would rather have a job with stronger burst, or would you rather have a job with stronger filler?

The issue that people, not just you, seem to be having is that you think PCT's downtime gain from painting motifs is the sole source of its imbalance, when that's not the case. At most it's 12 seconds worth of filler casts generated, assuming that downtime is enough to fully paint everything - which is also limited by the cooldowns of all your motifs as well. But during downtime you're not just painting. All the cooldowns on all your hard hitting motifs are ticking down as well. This is the other strength of PCT! The fact that so much of its damage is in its burst, which it will always be able to use, compared with a job like Black Mage that has much more damage in filler and barely any burst at all!

I’m not concerned with a theoretical future ultimate. I’m saying that what you are doing is tailoring the balance to the uptime profile of one specific ultimate is only ever going to actually balance it in that one ultimate. Because every ultimate has different downtime profiles

Because (as I keep trying to tell you) filler is made more important in downtime specifically in PCT’s case because it has a tool that mitigates downtime because it moves a cost from uptime and stuffs it into downtime, that means when you move a motif into downtime you gain filler. You can’t compare this to a job that doesn’t have a downtime mitigation tool like PCT. Because you are arguing from the dichotomy of “if you have good burst vs good filler which would you pick, BUT PCT HAS BOTH because your burst is still happening but now your filler is worth more. You are never skipping a burst, so jobs are decided on what they fit around burst. If your job doesn’t need any prep time to organise burst it performs better and vice versa if it’s bad at it

You are severely overestimating how much a burst heavy CD gated job benefits from downtime because it’s exactly how NIN, MNK and DRG and while they perform slightly above average they are nothing like PCT. PCT gains from those GCD’s it gains from putting motifs in downtime