Do you think that Picto needs a nerf?

[Realfoxy]

It’s performance relative to other classes is the only thing that matters here because if you compared PCT we it performs now in FRU and another class in how it performed in FRU and compared them both to a theoretical ultimate that has 20% more downtime than FRU then your change is a relative buff to PCT. Because if you equalise the damage between current PCT and changed PCT in FRU you are only equalising the damage in a right that has the same downtime profile as FRU

So if an ultimate came along that has more spread out downtime or more piecemeal downtime you’ve functionally massively buffed PCT because you are trying to balance it around FRU’s downtime profile, balancing it this way the potencies would come out differently for every ultimate because their downtime profiles are different

So other classes matter because this is a comparison of current PCT and thereotical changed PCT with regards to how much relatively better they are at handling downtime than jobs that can’t mitigate downtime

There's a few things to address here.

First, why are you so concerned with performance in a hypothetical future ultimate, when I have just shown that buffing filler and nerfing motifs addresses PCT's performance in FRU, the ultimate that is the current balance problem we are having right now?

Secondly, increased downtime DOESN'T make filler more important. It makes it less important. To illustrate this, let's look at an extreme example. Let's say that Ascian ultimate consists of 30 second uptime phases, followed by three and half minutes of downtime, repeating over and over. There's so little uptime that all you have time for is a 30s burst phase followed by extremely extended downtime until it's time for burst again.

Now, in such a situation, would rather have a job with stronger burst, or would you rather have a job with stronger filler?

The issue that people, not just you, seem to be having is that you think PCT's downtime gain from painting motifs is the sole source of its imbalance, when that's not the case. At most it's 12 seconds worth of filler casts generated, assuming that downtime is enough to fully paint everything - which is also limited by the cooldowns of all your motifs as well. But during downtime you're not just painting. All the cooldowns on all your hard hitting motifs are ticking down as well. This is the other strength of PCT! The fact that so much of its damage is in its burst, which it will always be able to use, compared with a job like Black Mage that has much more damage in filler and barely any burst at all!

[Supersnow845]

There's a few things to address here.

First, why are you so concerned with performance in a hypothetical future ultimate, when I have just shown that buffing filler and nerfing motifs addresses PCT's performance in FRU, the ultimate that is the current balance problem we are having right now?

Secondly, increased downtime DOESN'T make filler more important. It makes it less important. To illustrate this, let's look at an extreme example. Let's say that Ascian ultimate consists of 30 second uptime phases, followed by three and half minutes of downtime, repeating over and over. There's so little uptime that all you have time for is a 30s burst phase followed by extremely extended downtime until it's time for burst again.

Now, in such a situation, would rather have a job with stronger burst, or would you rather have a job with stronger filler?

The issue that people, not just you, seem to be having is that you think PCT's downtime gain from painting motifs is the sole source of its imbalance, when that's not the case. At most it's 12 seconds worth of filler casts generated, assuming that downtime is enough to fully paint everything - which is also limited by the cooldowns of all your motifs as well. But during downtime you're not just painting. All the cooldowns on all your hard hitting motifs are ticking down as well. This is the other strength of PCT! The fact that so much of its damage is in its burst, which it will always be able to use, compared with a job like Black Mage that has much more damage in filler and barely any burst at all!

I’m not concerned with a theoretical future ultimate. I’m saying that what you are doing is tailoring the balance to the uptime profile of one specific ultimate is only ever going to actually balance it in that one ultimate. Because every ultimate has different downtime profiles

Because (as I keep trying to tell you) filler is made more important in downtime specifically in PCT’s case because it has a tool that mitigates downtime because it moves a cost from uptime and stuffs it into downtime, that means when you move a motif into downtime you gain filler. You can’t compare this to a job that doesn’t have a downtime mitigation tool like PCT. Because you are arguing from the dichotomy of “if you have good burst vs good filler which would you pick, BUT PCT HAS BOTH because your burst is still happening but now your filler is worth more. You are never skipping a burst, so jobs are decided on what they fit around burst. If your job doesn’t need any prep time to organise burst it performs better and vice versa if it’s bad at it

You are severely overestimating how much a burst heavy CD gated job benefits from downtime because it’s exactly how NIN, MNK and DRG and while they perform slightly above average they are nothing like PCT. PCT gains from those GCD’s it gains from putting motifs in downtime

[Realfoxy]

Because (as I keep trying to tell you) filler is made more important in downtime specifically in PCT’s case because it has a tool that mitigates downtime because it moves a cost from uptime and stuffs it into downtime, that means when you move a motif into downtime you gain filler.

Alright, I see we're not getting anywhere. Let's use some real data then:

This is a top PCT log in FRU:


This is a top PCT log in M3S:


Take a look at these charts and take a look how much damage is coming from RGB filler vs motifs like hammer combo. Now, what do you think will happen if we nerf PCT filler and buff its motifs? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in FRU? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in a full uptime fight like M3S?

Stop thinking about "gaining filler". You're not gaining filler, you're losing less filler from downtime. Which is useful, yes, and it does mean that you do get more damage from filler casts than if motifs needed a target. But it doesn't matter because PCT's motif damage is SO HIGH anyway!

Ignore the effects of painting during downtime and just think about what PCT is actually doing during an ultimate fight. It's casting some filler, and it's casting some burst. It casts more filler in uptime, it casts less filler in ult.

You are severely overestimating how much a burst heavy CD gated job benefits from downtime because it’s exactly how NIN, MNK and DRG and while they perform slightly above average they are nothing like PCT. PCT gains from those GCD’s it gains from putting motifs in downtime

None of NIN, MNK, or DRG burst as hard as PCT does. Why do you think the DNCs in FRU are partnering PCT?

[Supersnow845]

Alright, I see we're not getting anywhere. Let's use some real data then:

This is a top PCT log in FRU:


This is a top PCT log in M3S:


Take a look at these charts and take a look how much damage is coming from RGB filler vs motifs like hammer combo. Now, what do you think will happen if we nerf PCT filler and buff its motifs? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in FRU? Do you think it will get stronger or weaker in a full uptime fight like M3S?

Stop thinking about "gaining filler". You're not gaining filler, you're losing less filler from downtime. Which is useful, yes, and it does mean that you do get more damage from filler casts than if motifs needed a target. But it doesn't matter because PCT's motif damage is SO HIGH anyway!

Ignore the effects of painting during downtime and just think about what PCT is actually doing during an ultimate fight. It's casting some filler, and it's casting some burst. It casts more filler in uptime, it casts less filler in ult.




None of NIN, MNK, or DRG burst as hard as PCT does. Why do you think the DNCs in FRU are partnering PCT?

Again I don’t know how to tell you that casting more filler in uptime savage compared to downtime ultimate is literally a useless distinction in regards to the comparison of why buffing filler helps PCT in downtime

Because PCT gains filler relative to other classes because it offsets its burst into downtime. Read that again it gains filler RELATIVE to other classes, if you wanna consider that as “losing less to downtime” that’s fine but it’s still gaining relative to other classes

When you gain relative to another class Buffing what you gain makes it stronger

The logs posted are a useless point of comparison because the comparison of why PCT benefits from filler being buffed is not between FRU and M3 it’s between FRU and FRU with different PCT. Losing more filler in downtime is a meaningless statement when every class loses MORE in downtime

[Realfoxy]

Again I don’t know how to tell you that casting more filler in uptime savage compared to downtime ultimate is literally a useless distinction in regards to the comparison of why buffing filler helps PCT in downtime

Because PCT gains filler relative to other classes because it offsets its burst into downtime. Read that again it gains filler RELATIVE to other classes, if you wanna consider that as “losing less to downtime” that’s fine but it’s still gaining relative to other classes

When you gain relative to another class Buffing what you gain makes it stronger

The logs posted are a useless point of comparison because the comparison of why PCT benefits from filler being buffed is not between FRU and M3 it’s between FRU and FRU with different PCT. Losing more filler in downtime is a meaningless statement when every class loses MORE in downtime

If we're only concerned about PCT relative to other classes, then all we need to do is give PCT a flat -10% (or whatever number) to all of its damaging abilities. But as you've so clearly pointed out earlier in this thread, PCT is further ahead of other classes in fights like FRU with downtime, compared to fights like M3S (and other high uptime fights in Savage) where it still has a lead, but isn't as far ahead.

That's why I'm comparing FRU to M3S. Because we need to change PCT in such a way that makes it relatively worse in fights like FRU, compared to fights like M3S. Hence, shifting its potency from motifs to filler.

[Supersnow845]

If we're only concerned about PCT relative to other classes, then all we need to do is give PCT a flat -10% (or whatever number) to all of its damaging abilities. But as you've so clearly pointed out earlier in this thread, PCT is further ahead of other classes in fights like FRU with downtime, compared to fights like M3S (and other high uptime fights in Savage) where it still has a lead, but isn't as far ahead.

That's why I'm comparing FRU to M3S. Because we need to change PCT in such a way that makes it relatively worse in fights like FRU, compared to fights like M3S. Hence, shifting its potency from motifs to filler.

I thought that as well but there is actually a decently easy middle ground (I’m not asking you to go back and check my post history but you can see the progression of my arguments on this front as people have pointed out things)

The gap between where PCT is now (accounting for 7.1 being lower PCT numbers than where it actually is) and the lower bounds of the melees is about 8-10%. PCT is not so far ahead in ultimates that if you nerfed it by 8-10% it would be so egregiously ahead in ultimates that anyone would particularly mind

Basically putting it around the bottom of the melee (but still comfortably clear of the rezz casters) but still clear first in ultimate where it weaponises its motifs best

[Kabooa]

I thought that as well but there is actually a decently easy middle ground (I’m not asking you to go back and check my post history but you can see the progression of my arguments on this front as people have pointed out things)

Based on the napkin math I was doing but scrapped the other post, the "middle ground" here would be:

Animals
1100 -> 900

Mog
1300 -> 900

Madeen
1400 -> 1000

Filler / Holy
+40

Palette Combo / Meteor
+60

Consuming Palette Gauge* reduces the cast/recast of the next Motif by 20%.

Using this to estimate the result in M3S and FRU (It was actually kind of funny as you could estimate about -600 potency per 2 minute window, or about half a Mog as a unit of measurement), the result overall was

"Full Uptime": 0 to -1.5% total DPS

"FRUptime" ~ 2.7-3.5% total damage based on the Picto. I chose several page 1 pictos in both (of the 7.05 patch for M3S) to napkin it out.

Full Uptime being neutralish was an assumption that all quick motifs were used to paint Animals.

The thing is the other napkin math was "Just remove the Starry Muse Party buff" and things mostly settle as well.

Picto remains the best burst for fights like Fru, but it doesn't dominate in Full Uptime.

So the above is one path, but this is also one (Exclusive, not both)

Starry Muse
Party buff -> 0%
Self Buff -> 10%

As an aside you could also further reduce burst by removing the self buff but increase the degree of haste Starry Muse grants, but I don't think that's necessary.