Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Connor]

I mean yes, but I was strictly speaking of utility that's not directly mitigation or healing or essentially a raid buff

Technically an ailment shield isn’t mitigation because it doesn’t affect damage taken lol. But I mean we also have speed buffs like Peloton which could become usable in-combat. GCD haste buffs or even cool-down reduction buffs like OG Spear. (controversial but still an option). Things like MP cost reductions / nullification. Maybe they could have abilities that charge LB or job gauges or something. Esuna / ability interruption is also neither mitigation nor healing nor raid buffs too I’d say.
And I mean, isn’t it on devs to implement that sort of thing anyway? Just because I don’t have ideas doesn’t meant the devs won’t; I’m not a game developer lol

[Valence]

I still think they could bring a brand new mechanic in encounter centered around resistances that some mobs could have that would be countered by rphys specific actions and tools, like slashing/piercing or other types of resistances, like armour actually which is more damage type agnostic. In DF casual content they would be just enough to justify the damage loss from rphys jobs, but in challenging encounters they could become actual mandatory part of solving mechanics properly, or introducing different ways of dealing with certain adds... owait- that would mean them to stop only giving us single boss trial fights in the middle of a circle arena.

Hell you could even specialize other resistances where specific mobs are specifically dealt by magical classes, some by physical classes, and have encounter adjust their presence to the party comp. If there is one guildhest I actually miss, is the one where the enemy has actual healers that need to die first before being able to do meaningful progress. Yeah I guess we're not playing the same game anymore, that's for sure.

[jonimated]

The real root cause to job homogenization is the 2-minute meta. The strict adherence to this prevents jobs from having any sort of dynamic mechanics. Unit we can abolish the 2-minute meta we will never have cooldowns that aren't 1 or 2 minutes. We will never have any reactionary mechanics. We will never have variable cooldown manipulation or variable resource generation.

We currently only have 2 jobs with any sort of dynamic elements, but they are in the grand scheme of the jobs completely meaningless. Bard has one proc-based ability in the form of Hawk's Eye but it ultimately equates to nothing but a minor potency increase. It doesn't actually change the rotation in any meaningful way. Dancer has 2 procs within it's basic combo, but they also have an ability during burst which completely negates them. Outside of that every single dps and tank job is 100% linear, because they have to be. Creating any sort of meaningful dynamic element would break the meta.

We will never move away from homogenization until the devs come to accept the 2-minute meta has caused more harm than good for the game.

[Supersnow845]

The real root cause to job homogenization is the 2-minute meta. The strict adherence to this prevents jobs from having any sort of dynamic mechanics. Unit we can abolish the 2-minute meta we will never have cooldowns that aren't 1 or 2 minutes. We will never have any reactionary mechanics. We will never have variable cooldown manipulation or variable resource generation.

We currently only have 2 jobs with any sort of dynamic elements, but they are in the grand scheme of the jobs completely meaningless. Bard has one proc-based ability in the form of Hawk's Eye but it ultimately equates to nothing but a minor potency increase. It doesn't actually change the rotation in any meaningful way. Dancer has 2 procs within it's basic combo, but they also have an ability during burst which completely negates them. Outside of that every single dps and tank job is 100% linear, because they have to be. Creating any sort of meaningful dynamic element would break the meta.

We will never move away from homogenization until the devs come to accept the 2-minute meta has caused more harm than good for the game.

The only other dynamic element of note is SCH’s dys-synergy but since encounters are so scripted these days SCH doesn’t really suffer from how adverse it is to on the fly alteration when it can lock itself out of parts of its kit

Interestingly that used to be a defined weakness of SCH, that it was a terrible reactionary healer. But now even that is gone so it’s dys-synergy while interesting never really hurts it

[Valence]

To be fair it started way before the 2 min meta. Even in HW that was definitely not exactly homogenization friendly, we saw some happening (notably on the new jobs, see how AST copied WHM base GCD kit, how DRK copied WAR's base GCD kit, or how MCH's new casting system got baked into BRD). But it took the shift in encounter design happening past Gordias up to Stormblood and then the complete destruction of the battle system itself in ShB to truly start seeing the ugly face of the problem. The 2min meta is definitely a huge anchor that drags everything down with it, but it was certainly not a thing yet when things were already being homogenized.

[Sarantserel]

The real root cause to job homogenization is the 2-minute meta. The strict adherence to this prevents jobs from having any sort of dynamic mechanics. Unit we can abolish the 2-minute meta we will never have cooldowns that aren't 1 or 2 minutes. We will never have any reactionary mechanics. We will never have variable cooldown manipulation or variable resource generation.

We currently only have 2 jobs with any sort of dynamic elements, but they are in the grand scheme of the jobs completely meaningless. Bard has one proc-based ability in the form of Hawk's Eye but it ultimately equates to nothing but a minor potency increase. It doesn't actually change the rotation in any meaningful way. Dancer has 2 procs within it's basic combo, but they also have an ability during burst which completely negates them. Outside of that every single dps and tank job is 100% linear, because they have to be. Creating any sort of meaningful dynamic element would break the meta.

We will never move away from homogenization until the devs come to accept the 2-minute meta has caused more harm than good for the game.

Agreed, I can't speak to how the game was prior to ShB (though I've heard enough about how homogenization started there for healers and tanks), but I definitely feel like the 2min meta is the crux of a lot of issues with the game balance atm. It forces every job to be bursty, in most case, by either being builder spenders or just through cooldown timing. Jobs that had more flat or unconventional design, like pre-rework PLD and BLM suffered a lot because burst timing changing from being all over the place (every 60s, 90s, 120s and 180s, depending on class comp in ShB) to always on 2min, which is what lead to their re-work which brought them closer in line with a bursty profile.

Not to mention that the 2min meta is also partly to blame with the issues regarding DPS checks we've been encountering. Back in ShB, since not all CD always just naturally lined up, it was possible in certain fights for players trying to push in the first week to instead delay their burst in certain fights so that it lined up with other job's burst. That aspect of skill expression is totally gone now that jobs line up naturally, meaning that when a fight has punishing DPS checks like P8S p1 or TOP p1, there's not much you can do beyond praying you don't get bad crit RNG.

[jonimated]

To be fair it started way before the 2 min meta. Even in HW that was definitely not exactly homogenization friendly, we saw some happening (notably on the new jobs, see how AST copied WHM base GCD kit, how DRK copied WAR's base GCD kit, or how MCH's new casting system got baked into BRD). But it took the shift in encounter design happening past Gordias up to Stormblood and then the complete destruction of the battle system itself in ShB to truly start seeing the ugly face of the problem. The 2min meta is definitely a huge anchor that drags everything down with it, but it was certainly not a thing yet when things were already being homogenized.

Yeah you're definitely not wrong. The changes pre-Shadowbringers were more subtle, but they were happening. The story of combat design of FFXIV from ARR to now can be told through the removal of mechanics that are deemed "not fun" and not replacing them with equally interesting more fun mechanics. It's always just "remove".

The only recent example I can think which is an exception to this rule is the removal of an active speed buff from Ninja to a passive one. They kept the general play style of the job intact by adding a mechanic for Armor Crush to play with since it didn't have a buff to refresh anymore. This isn't the norm though. 90% of the time skills and mechanics are simply taken out and not replaced with anything else.

As you say the 2-minute meta isn't the cause, but it's definitely the current anchor for homogenization. It's holding the game back and I think it's best place to start if we want job kits to be more diverse and interesting.

[HikariKurosawa]

2 minute burst timing is really good, I will never understand why people are against it. It enables encounter design to be complicated while also having burst design be complicated. Ideally encounters play out like this when things go smoothly: You do burst opener, then when you're in regular rotation a complex mechanic will occur, then you do simpler 1 minute burst during moderate mechanics, then you do 2 minute burst during a part of the fight where nothing is going on, then a complex mechanic occurs again. This repeats itself throughout the entire fight.

If this doesn't happen it's either one of two things: 1) the encounter design was bad, 2) the group didn't line up their cooldowns properly.

Anyone who disagrees with the 2 minute burst timing just doesn't understand the fundamentals of encounter design in this game or what the developers are attempting to achieve. Which is okay, most people eat mcdonalds regularly.

[jonimated]

2 minute burst timing is really good, I will never understand why people are against it. It enables encounter design to be complicated while also having burst design be complicated. Ideally encounters play out like this when things go smoothly: You do burst opener, then when you're in regular rotation a complex mechanic will occur, then you do simpler 1 minute burst during moderate mechanics, then you do 2 minute burst during a part of the fight where nothing is going on, then a complex mechanic occurs again. This repeats itself throughout the entire fight.

Ok so this? This right here? You just explained homogenization to yourself. So going back to the original question in your post, you know exactly what it is, even if you don't know that you know (which doesn't surprise me). Every job following the exact formula you just laid out in this quoted text. That's what it is.

So just say that, you know? If you think homogenization is fine and doesn't need to change, it's ok. But just say that. There's no point in arguing with anyone about it, because you obviously get it, even if you don't realize you do. You just don't see homogenization as a problem, where as other really do. And that's fine. You don't have to be afraid to just say you like every job playing the same. Just say that instead of hiding behind weird strawmen and faux ignorance.

[ovIm]

Incorrect, Hikari. Ironic that you say it like that when its actually the 2 Minute Meta enjoyers that inhale the McDonalds like its the second coming of christ. 2 Minute meta is like eating only at different McDonalds, every BigMac tastes the same. No derivation from the norm, you say it yourself, after all. Every fight plays out in the same vein, again and again. No derivation needed, everything is homogenized, just follow the steps and receive loot. And wouldn't you know it, after over 5 years of the exact same fight design, people are tired of it.

The McDonaldization of what raiding means in FF14 is visible to everyone with more than a couple of brain cells. Here is a good write up that is very much a recommended read. (Or use this link if you don't want to go to reddit and instead want to see it written on the forums, I copy pasted it once, I won't spam the forum with the same block of text multiple times)

Now, I don't believe this will sway your opinion because you are set to never change your opinion ever, but I am sure other people in this thread will appreciate and understand what this means for FFXIV. I know this post has shaken Valence once already.