Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Valence]

Downtime, uptime, you'll never balance the game around just those variables tied to damage and nothing else if you want variety. Trying to argue or half ass anything within that lack of parameters to play around will only result in migraines because it's not objectively solvable. Since the current battle system design is sanctified to the devs, their only option for balance is to use the holy sandpaper on jobs in order to remove their rough edges so that they all fit neatly into the same hole.

I tried to do it on the other post that was done so I’ll try it again here

Classes in an MMO can be defined by their damage profile (I don’t mean tanks healers DPS support) I mean how their damage is applied and the change in the rate it applies over the course of the fight. There are in my mind 5 “classical” damage profiles in an MMO

1) builder spender- builds a lot of resources using filler then dumps them all within a particular window

2) Sustained damage- doesn’t really care about anyone else just does consistent damage over the fight

3) ramper- has to set themselves up and work towards their eventual higher damage

4) DOT’er/debuffer- focuses on sustained damage via application of damaging debuffs

5) buffer- focuses the overwhelming majority of time and space on buffing others DPS, has little to no self damage


Now let’s looks at the 14 jobs. If we go back to “classical 14” (ie the HW era) these distinctions were far more defined. SCH and SMN were DOT’ers, BLM and PLD were sustained, NIN was a builder spender, MNK was a ramper, AST was a buffer etc. all of the jobs had unique damage profiles that led to unique minute to minute gameplay

Now contrast this with the modern jobs. Every single job in this game (arguably sans SGE) has a massive nuke that is designed explicitly to be pressed once per 2 minutes (or per minute for the tanks). And every job that has a mechanic to buff others damage has that buff out on exactly a 2 minute CD. More and more skills have been altered to allow to stacking into a 2 minute burst (enshroud and awakening having 100 gauge despite needing 50 to burst encouraging triple use of the burst because the 2 minute button gives you a “burst again button”)/lilys being neutral so they are a gain to sync with the buff window and dump misery/moves getting charged allowing you to hold charges for the burst window such as phlegma.

In short everything has coalesced around the two minute burst window and since buffs are multiplicative the burst window becomes so strong that the other styles of combat become unable to keep up and get changed to fit into the buff meta (this is why PLD was redone in EW) Every change they give BLM is designed to push more potency into the burst window so they can burst better (such as 3 charges of xeno and 2 leylines to always keep it aligned with the burst window). Our two DOT’ers basically lost their DOT’s and are now generic buff feeder jobs with pointless buffs and burst focused rotations (SMN especially). The rampers now basically just get buttons that allows them to burst immediately (such as plentiful harvest on RPR) and the buffers have been reduced from meaningful buff maintenance to generic big buffs in the burst window and set and forget buffs outside of it (DNC, BRD and AST)

So in short every job is now just a flavour of builder spender because the only thing that matters is the 2 minute burst window This has also led to the removal of meaningful utility. Between 21 classes we literally have ONE skill that fits the bill of true utility; expedient. Without utility and an overwhelming focus on damage with no alternatives the jobs feel flat and stale, nobody but SCH can offer anything to the party that’s not just a flavour of damage because every ability is either “I do damage” “I make someone else do damage” or “I make the boss hit us for less damage”

Now since every job focuses on building for the two minute window every job hates downtime and hates two target cleave (sans PCT) because the way they have been designed means they really only work in full uptime 2 single target savage and basically every other fight design is just “compensation” for their inherent flaws (jobs like RPR hate not getting gauge in downtime, SAM can’t get stickers etc)


So basically every job has been shoved down into a generic builder spender that only functions on full uptime single target, hates downtime and the majority of its potency comes from big disconnected nukes you press in the burst window. That’s why every job feels homogenised

Adding to this you can also check the history of big job partial or total reworks and they stop before Stormblood jobs. SAM, RDM, DNC, GNB, RPR, SGE, all have had some changes happening here and there don't get me wrong (kaiten removed), but they're still at the core the same jobs with the same mechanics. Now go back before... MCH? Has nothing left from the original. DRK? Same, just hasn't gone through a huge rework but saw things constantly removed from it every expansion until not much remained. AST? The job that gets partially or completely reworked every expansion? MNK? Reworked. NIN? Reworked (but perhaps for the best?). DRG? Finally starting to get reworked in depth this expansion too, and let's not talk about BLM. SMN got completely reworked into something else last expansion. Healers got it the least, but they still got a lot of changes whether it's WHM or SCH. PLD completely reworked, WAR as well over time.

[CNitsah]

I always felt like the "job homogenization" was an exageration. As much as I totally agree for tanks (nearly every skill has it's counterpart in every job), it's not true for DPS and Healers (except maybe WHM and AST sharing some similarities - I didn't play them enough at high lvl).

Even the arguments presented in this thread talk more about job simplification than homogenization. Or resullt of the 2 min meta that was asked by the players for years before everyone realized it was a bad idea. I swear to god, people in this game are really bad at reflecting on and analyzing the problems, and often end pointing a real symptoms under a fake problem. Except for tanks (and maybe WHM and AST), homogenization is not a problem, 2 min meta and simplification are. None of the melee ranged or magic jobs feel the same. Even the barrier Healers don't feel the same.

The same kind of argument can be made about content, where people claim it's predictability problem or the time between patch being too long, when the problem is that the content has no shelf life. Unpreductability would be nice plus, but if the content continue to be one time and never again, not being predictable and being every 3.5 month instead of 4.5 won't change anything, the problem is the nature of the content we get.

And then people complain about the dev team being out of touch (well, that's not totally untrue), when their complaints continue to be out there, pointing at problems that are, at best a result of the core problem.

[HikariKurosawa]

I always felt like the "job homogenization" was an exageration. As much as I totally agree for tanks (nearly every skill has it's counterpart in every job), it's not true for DPS and Healers (except WHM and AST sharing some similarities).

Even the arguments presented in this thread talk more about job simplification than homogenization. Or resullt of the 2 min meta that was asked by the players for years before everyone realized it was a bad idea. I swear to god, people in this game are really bad at reflecting on and analyzing the problems, and often end pointing a real problem under a fake problem. Except for tanks (and maybe WHM and AST), homogenization is not a problem, 2 min meta and simplification are. None of the melee ranged or magic jobs feel the same. Even the barrier Healers don't feel the same.

The same kind of argument can be made about content, where people claim it's predictability problem or the time between patch being too long, when the problem is that the content has no shelf life. Unpreductability would be nice plus, but if the content continue to be one time and never again, not being predictable and being every 3.5 month instead of 4.5 won't change anything, the problem is the nature of the content we get.

And then people complain about the dev team being out of touch (well, that's not totally untrue), when their complaints continue to be out there, pointing at problems that are, at best a result of the core problem.

I don't see the homogenization with tanks though. How is warrior gameplay even remotely similar to paladin or gunbreaker? I don't know anything about dark knight, but it seems to be the same in being totally different than the other three.

Every tank simply needs to have cooldowns for tankbusters. That said, they are all different executions and forms of the same result. It's like my icecream argument. Tank cooldowns are different flavors of icecream. If you look at the way they play rotationally and how they feel though, every single tank is wildly different. Even if you stripped away all animations and made it so they were hitting with fists and wearing plain clothes, they would feel and flow completely differently.

Reading through this thread is amusing though. People really can't clearly articulate how homogenization exists in this game. They just say "it's homogenization1!!" without actually explaining their reasoning. I think it's good because maybe you'll learn to appreciate the differences through your failures to express yourselves.

"DPS all deals damage and has 2 minute burst windows that's homogenization!" "Healers all heal and two are barrier two are pure healers that's homogenization!!" "Tanks all have tank cooldowns!! Homogenization!!" "They keep simplifying jobs that's homogenization!!"

[CNitsah]

Every tank simply needs to have cooldowns for tankbusters. That said, they are all different executions and forms of the same result. It's like my icecream argument. Tank cooldowns are different flavors of icecream. If you look at the way they play rotationally and how they feel though, every single tank is wildly different. Even if you stripped away all animations and made it so they were hitting with fists and wearing plain clothes, they would feel and flow completely differently.

I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldown. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on decreasing dammage dealt by mobs instead of decreasing the damage you get. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any tanks is.

[HikariKurosawa]

I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, still, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldow. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on removing dammage given by mobs instead of augmenting the damage dealt. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any differences between the tanks.

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

[CNitsah]

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

[ArtaVallian]

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

No, the core gameplay is not that different, especially not compared to how it used to be in StB and even in early ShB. I just discovered that they removed DRG's mechanic where they maintained a meter by quickly completing combos. The meter was the countdown for a damage buff window. The better you were at keeping up your combos, the longer it would last. That's gone, now. That was the only thing besides the jumps that made it stand out, and it really added to the fun. But because they want to stick to their models of uptime and downtime and such with savage they gutted that, and it feels not much different from how I remember SAM.

Also, for SMN, I liked how they got rid of some jank parts of it, but I'm now very tired of not being able to double or triple-weave for most of it. My dots were removed, and it was oh, well, but they didn't give me anything else for it. My pets don't even passively damage, anymore, even though they easily could with ranged moves. But really, SMN feels like a hollow version of itself. You can choose the order of your moves, but you have to use all of them... except maybe Ifrit's, which might not be worth the damage with their long cast time. The gauge is pretty much useless because it's not building to anything, it's only good for using two resources that have little impact. I want my 3 resources back. I want my pets back. I want my triple-weaving back. We're just a worse RDM right now with the order of hard and fast casts shifted around a bit.

And SCH pretty much feels like SGE. It can either have a shield effect or have a pure healing effect on many of its moves. It only has a 1 button rotation like all the other healers. It has one dot, just like SGE. It used to be plague king, like SMN, applying and spreading dots. If they even just gave back the dot spreading to SCH and let it deal more damage with a move depending on the number of dots on an enemy like how SMN used to do, it would feel so much better again. But nope, they don't want healers damaging. They don't want healers to be fun, clearly, from the 1 dot rotations. Don't have fun, just heal.

Those are just some examples.

[Connor]

Wait I’m confused. What is there to not get?

Homogenisation is when they put stuff that clearly belongs on one job onto another, that makes them feel the same gameplay wise.


Like making all four healers have effectively identical filler attack spells with the same 1.5 cast time because they wanted to homogenise the role with AST’s faster casts (Glare / Broil / Dosis \ Malefic). There isn’t a functional difference outside of flat potency between any of these abilities, despite them existing on four different jobs. Un-homogenising them would mean giving them each unique filler attack spells that fit with the actual job’s design/identity and not just matching Astrologian’s cast times across the entire role lol. I.E WHM having a longer cast higher potency filled, SCHs could have a debuff attached, Astrologian’s could remain a 1.5s cast, and Sage’s filler could have a chance to proc Addersting or the Kardia effects could be different when Eukrasia is up.

I mean if we want the perfect example of a time in which the devs pursued homogenisation to the point it made the game worse, we need look no further than Heavensward phys ranged. They designed Machinist as a pseudo-caster with the ammo system to work around casts, then randomly decided to add cast times to literally every Bard weaponskill they had. There was no functional reason for it, no gameplay advantage, and Bard already had casts on their songs anyway. There was no need for them to copy+paste Machinist’s entire job gimmick onto Bard, but they did it solely for the sake of ‘homogenisation’ - to make them play and feel the exact same.

Why do they choose to ‘homogenised’ classes by making them all do the exact same things in the exact same ways? That’s easier to answer. Easier job balancing lol

[HikariKurosawa]

Wait I’m confused. What is there to not get?

Homogenisation is when they put stuff that clearly belongs on one job onto another, that makes them feel the same gameplay wise.


Like making all four healers have effectively identical filler attack spells with the same 1.5 cast time because they wanted to homogenise the role with AST’s faster casts (Glare / Broil / Dosis \ Malefic). There isn’t a functional difference outside of flat potency between any of these abilities, despite them existing on four different jobs. Un-homogenising them would mean giving them each unique filler attack spells that fit with the actual job’s design/identity and not just matching Astrologian’s cast times across the entire role lol. I.E WHM having a longer cast higher potency filled, SCHs could have a debuff attached, Astrologian’s could remain a 1.5s cast, and Sage’s filler could have a chance to proc Addersting or the Kardia effects could be different when Eukrasia is up.

I mean if we want the perfect example of a time in which the devs pursued homogenisation to the point it made the game worse, we need look no further than Heavensward phys ranged. They designed Machinist as a pseudo-caster with the ammo system to work around casts, then randomly decided to add cast times to literally every Bard weaponskill they had. There was no functional reason for it, no gameplay advantage, and Bard already had casts on their songs anyway. There was no need for them to copy+paste Machinist’s entire job gimmick onto Bard, but they did it solely for the sake of ‘homogenisation’ - to make them play and feel the exact same.

Why do they choose to ‘homogenised’ classes by making them all do the exact same things in the exact same ways? That’s easier to answer. Easier job balancing lol

Sure, healer dot and single target filler spell is all the same. They're healers after all, the distinction between the jobs is their healing not their damage. Even then though, outside of their single target filler cast and dots they all have very different damage spells.

I've played bard and mch at level 80 and both are completely different. Like what, tactician troubadour and shield samba existing means the jobs are the same? It's not even about easier job balancing, it's about keeping different jobs viable in all content and preventing role stacking from occurring. They want us to bring a diverse set of jobs to each encounter, that's a good thing.

[AlgernonBlackwood]

Sure, healer dot and single target filler spell is all the same. They're healers after all, the distinction between the jobs is their healing not their damage. Even then though, outside of their single target filler cast and dots they all have very different damage spells.

You do realize that is a completely arbitrary rule that wasn't the case prior to ShB, right? Healers were defined just as much, if not more, by their offensive skillsets (or secondary support skillsets, like AST's card system). You're accepting "one nuke, one DoT" as a sensical design choice, not because it's a normal expectation of healers in MMORPGS (it's not, nor would it be considered acceptable in any other modern multiplayer game), but simply because it's all you know (as evidence by the fact that you seemed to have no idea what Connor was talking about when they brought up SB-era cast times on PRanged and instead started fixating on the modern version of the job's mitigation skills, of all things).

Also, yes "very different damage spells", lol. You have damage neutral heals (Pneuma, Macro), damage neutral mobility (Toxicon, Misery), and your 40/60/120 cd nukes (Phlegma, Assize, Psyche, Oracle, Bainful Impactation, Glare 4), most of which you can only press once a minute, at best. That's it. Well, aside from energy drain (AKA: "the most interesting offensive healer ability in the game"), but that's a true fossil that the devs have already established that they'd love to axe.

Even if we are just talking about healing, there is very little diversity compared to other MMORPGs. Every healer just has slightly different ratios of burst/HoT/shields/%mitigation. Something like "heals when dealing damage" isn't a mechanical identity because it doesn't actually change the way a player approaches playing SGE. It's pure flavor. Every healer wants to keep casting their offensive spells as much as possible, which means at best it's simply rewarding you for playing it the exact same way as every other healer. Contrast with Disc Priest in WOW, whose healing scales with their damage inflicted, requiring the playing to plan their offensive bursts around healing demands. Or imagine if all of SGE's AoE heals worked like Healing Waltz, requiring you to keep track of your Kardia target and plan around their position.