Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

[Jaxtaro]

Yeah, probably is.

Oh, so you DO have an expectation regarding the performance of people. ... Good thing we are in agreement for at least those two specific cases that people should to better.

Yes, of course, there are super basic things that are clearly reasinable expectations, and your experiences justify frustration in this case.

Why? No really, why? Why is it that the dps role get a pass to be completely useless, while tanks and healers have to fulfill at least the basic functions of their roll?

Because they generally have much less value than the other two roles, especially tanks. The only time they would not be carryable is in the presence of triggers like timers, or if healer MP were an actual resource which required conservation. None of these are true in normal content where this topic deals with outside of super rare duties with DPS checks, like Atherochemical plant kind of has.. You've seen it a hundred times, tank survives and solos 2/3 of a boss fight. DPS can't carry a box of Kleenex in group content, and without carry potential, there comes lower expectations. That's just the way it is.

Because it's possible? Quite frankly, your attitude is pretty toxic ... frustrated

.

See above for the ACTUAL reasons and not your pulpit proclomations and moral grandstanding.

You ARE right about one thing however, I don't care, even a little that someone is frustrated in a duty finder duty at the rate of progress. This is not out of a lack of empathy, but out of disgust for the egocentrism of someone who joins a duty finder whose entire premise is to carry, then is mad thatbthey are carrying. That extends even further to someone with a flower who is being an insufferable egotist.

People who queue as tanks and healers have to do basically all the work, not only for their own role, but also to carry lazy dps

.

You don't "have" to do anything, you choose to join a duty to derive the benefit from carrying people, that you are frustrated by your choice is an attitude problem that you need to resolve.

Allow me to be frank here. I think YOU are so used to being carried through content, you don't even know what an experience a group made out of people with your attitude is. . ...

So yeah, you would be wrong. I tend to put any content on farm status within a week of it being released. I tend to use duty support to get to know the content where the entire team of NPC's exist to be inefficient, but be programmed to get boss mechanics, so I guess if I'm "carried" by anyone it's a team of NPC's. If I join where real people exist, I already know the encounters, and play hyper efficiently. I simply don't expect other people in duty support to be copies of me or have the same philosophy as me. I want to be a source of calm fun, not shrill toxicity.

[CNitsah]

And all that, the 60% of parties in Expert where it takes me nearly 20 to 25 minutes to finish, when I'm bored, I leave.

[...]

Ps: What really bothers me is that the 7.1 dungeon is an ease compared to the level 100 dungeons of 7.0...
All because people were crying that it was too hard... It was actually a bit more fun, except maybe the funfair, which was annoying with its add mechs that immobilize you.

You must be the most unluckiest person in the world, because I'm on the same data center, and for years, the vast majority of of expert roulettes I've done belong to the 15 to 20 min window.

About the dungeon I don't think the the new dungeons are easier. the problem is that at 7.0, we all had the same ilvl, the right ilvl to run them.
With 7.1, they have to think about the guys that will comme out of 7.0 with their 690 gear. It has to be doable for them. Except most the players that played during the 7.0 where between 710 and 720, even 730 for raiders. basically the average player is between 20 a 30 (even 40 for some) ilvl points above what the dungeon is scaled for (maybe 5 points less, the 7.1 dungeaon might require 695 gear).

BTW, some people in this thread seem to have a serious ego problem... "ThEy HaVe To ThInK tO wHaT i WaNt WhIlE i IgNoRe WhAt ThEy WaNT". The video is kinda make good points, and I don't know how it devolved to some some angry egoist screeching so fast.

[AllenThyl]

Yes, of course, there are super basic things that are clearly reasinable expectations, and your experiences justify frustration in this case.

Why though? Why is it reasonable to expect healers and tanks to do their basic function, but DPS are exempt from the same kind of expectation doing their role (i.e. damage).

Because they generally have much less value than the other two roles, especially tanks.

Why? DPS can tank, not as well as tanks, yes, but they can. Similarly, tanks and healers do damage, but not as well DPS. So again, why do tanks and healers have to fulfill their main roll, but DPS are given a free pass?

The only time they would not be carryable is in the presence of triggers like timers, or if healer MP were an actual resource which required conservation.

The first 2 levelling dungeons of every expansion can be quite spicy even for experienced people when doing wall to wall pulls (especially for some tanks due to lack of mitigation tools at that level). DPS not doing their job can lead to tanks running out of mitigations and healers having to pump out GCD heals. And that actually can wipe a group.

You've seen it a hundred times, tank survives and solos 2/3 of a boss fight. DPS can't carry a box of Kleenex in group content, and without carry potential, there comes lower expectations. That's just the way it is.

Ohh, "that's just the way it is" ... I see. Why precisely does that kind of argument only apply to lazy DPS? Why doesn't it apply to people expecting DPS to do their job? I mean, that's just the way it is, "git gud or git kicked". Also, should I introduce you to the "the tank held the party hostage for half an hour" crowd? I'm sure this would be an amazing conversation.

You ARE right about one thing however, I don't care, even a little that someone is frustrated in a duty finder duty at the rate of progress. This is not out of a lack of empathy, but out of disgust for the egocentrism of someone who joins a duty finder whose entire premise is to carry, then is mad thatbthey are carrying. That extends even further to someone with a flower who is being an insufferable egotist.

No, don't delude yourself here, that is complete lack of empathy. Literally. You have shown yourself so far to be completely unable to understand that other people value their time as well. The main issue of essentialism is the attribution of characteristics in the absence of actions that would justify these characteristics. You so far have been the most egocentrical and delusion poster in here, with you expecting that the healers and tanks should be carrying the whole run on top of performing the additional duties that come with these rolls. But I am really happy to see you post here, because usually the leechers with this attitude keep their mouth shut in these discussions so as to not have the spotlight shone on them. But I presume the constant emboldening by the enabler community has rotted away any leftovers of humility.

You don't "have" to do anything, you choose to join a duty to derive the benefit from carrying people, that you are frustrated by your choice is an attitude problem that you need to resolve.

Ooohh, is that so? So when I queue for a duty directly, I get to be the lazy bum demanding other people to carry me?
The main issue here is, that you don't even understand how damaging and toxic this attitude is. You don't understand how the duty finder experience will be negatively impacted when a critical mass of "I don't care, I'm just here for fun" players is reached and normal raids get vote abandoned because there aren't enough people who understand how to solve the mechanics. I have experienced Royal City of Rabanstre runs fall apart at the 2nd boss, because not enough people were able to dodge the mechanics, so there wasn't enough dps on the sand orbs.

So yeah, you would be wrong. I tend to put any content on farm status within a week of it being released. I tend to use duty support to get to know the content where the entire team of NPC's exist to be inefficient, but be programmed to get boss mechanics, so I guess if I'm "carried" by anyone it's a team of NPC's. If I join where real people exist, I already know the encounters, and play hyper efficiently. I simply don't expect other people in duty support to be copies of me or have the same philosophy as me. I want to be a source of calm fun, not shrill toxicity.

*snort*
You want to be a source of "calm fun", but you don't care if you are a major source of "silent frustration", do you?
Also, what the heck does "put any content on farm status within a week" even mean? Are you progging the Allied Society dailies or what? "Play hyper efficiently" ... and what did you optimize for that efficiency? Lowest number of button presses to not risk getting kicked for appearing afk? Because it's obviously not clear speed you are going for, given your cavalier attitude towards baseline expectations for DPS players.

[Jaxtaro]

Why though? Why is it reasonable to expect healers and tanks to do their basic function, but DPS are exempt from the same kind of expectation doing their role (i.e. damage). .

At any point, did you see anyone in this discussion say that DPS are exempt from basic requirements? No, what you saw was that standards are lower because encounter design makes their value negligible enough that one can be completely missing and it has no impact on the binary success or failure of the duty. This doesn't exempt them from engaging at a minimum level.

Why? DPS can tank, not as well as tanks, yes, but they can..

No they can't, because they have no way of reliably controlling aggro. They can sometimes temporarily survive if focused, but that's not tanking. Tanking is a binary. You either have the tools or you don't, and DPS don't havr the tools.

Similarly, tanks and healers do damage, but not as well DPS.

I see you're entirely unfamiliar with the gaming concept of stackability, and how it influences encounter design.

Damage, as a function stacks. All members of a group can do it simultaneously, whereas Tanking doesn't, it is unique to tanks, as is healing to healers. Both of those roles are essential in a binary pass/fail condition. There are pass/fail conditions to ensure that "if tank does not do minimum performance of job, then fail", which holds true also for healers. This means that if you are to succeed at the bare minimum of finishing a duty, you must perform at the if/then level.

This isn't opinion, or players' expectations, this is just plain old encounter design. DPS very very rarely has a pass/fail condition, and even when they do, it is set so low that the likelihood of it affecting the outcome of a normal duty is so low as to be nonexistent.

The first 2 levelling dungeons of every expansion can be quite spicy even for experienced people when doing wall to wall pulls (especially for some tanks due to lack of mitigation tools at that level). DPS not doing their job can lead to tanks running out of mitigations and healers having to pump out GCD heals. And that actually can wipe a group.

Your failure analysis is flawed. The fail point in this very rare scenario isn't DPS, it's the tank. There is no requirement to WTW while undergeared, and them doing so is what leads to wipes. That is a choice that the tank has, and has nothing to do with a binary pass/fail condition of DPS.

Ohh, "that's just the way it is" ... I see. Why precisely does that kind of argument only apply to lazy DPS?

Yeah, repeating a stupid question over and over doesn't make it all of a sudden have a different answer. The success or failure of a duty doesn't hinge on the DPS role like it does the other two. Take it up with Square, not me that DPS players have less impact than the other two roles.

Breaking this into two posts due to character limit.

[Jaxtaro]

You have shown yourself so far to be completely unable to understand that other people value their time as well.

No, you mistake not having any interest in pressuring people in duty finder to hit a pace that is beyond the success or failure point with some bizarre concept of "person playing a game queues for a duty with 3 perfect strangers and expects others to value getting the duty done 3-5 minutes faster as much as they do".

You so far have been the most egocentrical and delusion poster in here, with you expecting that the healers and tanks should be carrying the whole run on top of performing the additional duties that come with these rolls.

I'll just leave the smarmy, ineffective attempts to insult and obscurantism here. I don't know what you think you'll gain by acting indignant, it's a poor substitute for a valid argument.

Ooohh, is that so? So when I queue for a duty directly, I get to be the lazy bum demanding other people to carry me?

Not if you have any integrity. There is a difference between having the ability and not using it and expecting everyone else to play at your expectation level. A difference you SHOULD understand, but either don't, or don't care.

The main issue here is, that you don't even understand how damaging and toxic this attitude is. (blah blah)

No, the main issue is that pressuring people in normal content is wrong. If you cannot fathom the plebian stench of other people not rising to your level of play, then stay out of normal content.

I have experienced Royal City of Rabanstre runs fall apart at the 2nd boss, because not enough people were able to dodge the mechanics, so there wasn't enough dps on the sand orbs.

The topic was expert dungeons, 4 man content, changing to optional alliance raids and boss mechanics. Try to stick to the subject, but since you felt the need, we can go there.

Sometimes raids fail. This is a fact of life, especially with a pick up raid such as one finds in duty finder. If you aren't prepared for that potential inevitability going in, that's a you problem.

Also, what the heck does "put any content on farm status within a week" even mean?

The topic was 4 man extreme duties, and the meaning is that you move past learning content

...it's obviously not clear speed you are going for, given your cavalier attitude towards baseline expectations for DPS players.

What my expectations for other people are has no bearing on my play. Trying to optimize progress per unit of time for my own performance, something that differs with each role, has no impact on what I expect other people to do. You seem to not get that expectations on yourself can differ from your expectations of other people.

[IceEyes]

The topic is good, but deep down, I think everyone understands that nothing will change conceptually.

Combat in this game has two sides. It's some "hard" content where any mistake is punished fatally, often for the whole group. Or it's so insignificant that it requires no effort at all, and if it does, it's with minimal effort. Something more average is needed for all roles. More healing for healers, more mechanics with ads for reds, more tanking for tanks. But we have running in circles and back and forth, zig-zagging, and placing huge, ridiculous markers on half the screen, thank you! The fights are uninteresting and this is the main reason why so boring to learn a fight.

Complaints about passing regular dungeons and even more so, alliance raids are quite ridiculous. You've already spent some time in the queue or partially completing the dungeon, what's the point of leaving it halfway or getting a penalty for the queue?

I'm the person who often slacks off on alliance raids, but is it my fault that most of them are incredibly boring and don't require effort or my personal permanent attention?
The last alliance raid Endwalker is literally a sleeping pill for me. Horrible, soothing ambient, slightly lazy combat... Zzz. Do you really want to blame me for literally falling asleep in a dungeon because it's so uninteresting? (By the way, this is why I love 70 and 80 alliance raids. They are extremely rare in roullete, but they are always fun).

If you really value your time, then you do the whole roulette with friends, however, the side content too. It really saves your nerves and time.
If you go to a solo queue in any role, you by default agree that you can throw three sprouts into it, with whom you will have to babysit.

[AllenThyl]

At any point, did you see anyone in this discussion say that DPS are exempt from basic requirements? No, what you saw was that standards are lower because encounter design makes their value negligible enough that one can be completely missing and it has no impact on the binary success or failure of the duty. This doesn't exempt them from engaging at a minimum level.

If the only criteria you have is "is the duty completed in the allotted time", then yes, you are correct. That's why I said you have no empathy, since you have no regard for the fact that other people do value their time. And might not appreciate having it pointlessly wasted by people who should be in therapy for their video game addiction or use the already available NPCs to get through the duties, instead of leeching.

No they can't, because they have no way of reliably controlling aggro. They can sometimes temporarily survive if focused, but that's not tanking. Tanking is a binary. You either have the tools or you don't, and DPS don't havr the tools.

Ah, so tanking is "binary", but dps is a stacking function? My man, and I mean this with the utmost empathy, you are utterly delusional. This is what happens when you start to internalize the enabler rhetoric. Binary tanking would be "dps instantly dies from attack". They don't. Especially not in the normal content that we are talking about. A DPS tanking is annoying, because they require more healing, and very likely some rezzes. But it's not impossible. The pulls have to be smaller, and some mobs might have to be CCed. So the dungeon will take longer. But so will a dungeon where the DPS don't bother to do their jobs and deal proper damage!

No, you mistake not having any interest in pressuring people in duty finder to hit a pace that is beyond the success or failure point with some bizarre concept of "person playing a game queues for a duty with 3 perfect strangers and expects others to value getting the duty done 3-5 minutes faster as much as they do".

"Pressuring people". Gods man, are you dramatic. I am starting to get the feeling that you speak from experience here, and I suspect that the frustration was pretty justified on the other people's end. Also, since the "3-5" minutes is so often thrown around: 5 minutes added to a 16 min run is 30% more. That's not "nothing". That adds up quite a lot of time when doing the content a lot. And pointlessly added to it, because some people don't want to do the absolute bare minimum for their role that they queue with. Which again, is only an argument for people who actually care about other people's time and fun, not for people completely lacking in empathy.

Not if you have any integrity. There is a difference between having the ability and not using it and expecting everyone else to play at your expectation level. A difference you SHOULD understand, but either don't, or don't care.

As I said, you don't even understand how toxic this attitude is. You don't get people to have more patience and understanding when you demand they do all the work, but should be unable to expect at least a mediocum of competence from their fellow teammates. The problem is, that the game design itself is pretty much build on the notion that a smaller population of skilled players will carry the larger part of the playerbase through most content. But as I said, you are so used to being carried, you don't even know what a party with your attitude is like.

The topic was expert dungeons, 4 man content, changing to optional alliance raids and boss mechanics. Try to stick to the subject, but since you felt the need, we can go there.

Your reading comprehension is 7th grade level. I gave you one specific context for a question, while the broader topic is still about people doing the bare minimum. To pretend that normal and alliance raids aren't on the same trivial level as normal dungeons is just laughable.

Sometimes raids fail. This is a fact of life, especially with a pick up raid such as one finds in duty finder. If you aren't prepared for that potential inevitability going in, that's a you problem.

Normal and alliance raids are trivial content. There might be wipes when too many people are new, but one of these instances outright failing is an indictment of the playerbase.

The topic was 4 man extreme duties, and the meaning is that you move past learning content

Expert dungeons aren't "extreme duties". They are trivial content. Yes, if you are new, there might be a few wipes, and yes, I get that some mechanics like the confusion arrow are a real road block for some. But you don't "progg" these dungeons. There is nothing to put them on "farm status within a week", especially when you don't even optimize for clear time. Being able to clear an expert dungeon within the 90 minutes you get is not an achievement, it's the absolute bare minimum. Even the NPCs are able to clear the dungeon on their own in less time. And they are deliberately scaled to be "worse than any player party".

What my expectations for other people are has no bearing on my play. Trying to optimize progress per unit of time for my own performance, something that differs with each role, has no impact on what I expect other people to do. You seem to not get that expectations on yourself can differ from your expectations of other people.

"optimize progress per unit of time". What an absolute meaningless statement. The fact that you dance around dps / clear times says it all.

Or it's so insignificant that it requires no effort at all, and if it does, it's with minimal effort.

And yet, as this discussion has shown, even asking for that minimal effort is too much to ask.

Complaints about passing regular dungeons and even more so, alliance raids are quite ridiculous. You've already spent some time in the queue or partially completing the dungeon, what's the point of leaving it halfway or getting a penalty for the queue?

The unwillingness to waste anymore time with a bunch of buffoons who failed the same, highly telegraphed mechanic for the 4th time despite there being a danger dorito running around literally showing people where the safe spot it. Again, this is like playing sports with people uninterested in playing the sport.

I'm the person who often slacks off on alliance raids, but is it my fault that most of them are incredibly boring and don't require effort or my personal permanent attention?
The last alliance raid Endwalker is literally a sleeping pill for me. Horrible, soothing ambient, slightly lazy combat... Zzz. Do you really want to blame me for literally falling asleep in a dungeon because it's so uninteresting? (By the way, this is why I love 70 and 80 alliance raids. They are extremely rare in roullete, but they are always fun).

You are not responsible for the fight design. However, you are responsible for what you do. If you slack in a group duty, that is 100% on you. If you weren't there, maybe someone else would have taken your place who wouldn't slack. Which I am reasonably sure, is usually preferred by everyone else. But that argument of course only works for people who even care about anyone else.

If you go to a solo queue in any role, you by default agree that you can throw three sprouts into it, with whom you will have to babysit.

Sprouts are sprouts. People in max level raids with hundreds of hours playtime using Drill only twice in a 10 minute fight aren't "sprouts to babysit".

[LibitIncarne]

I think it's worth noting that most bad players are just mimicing what NPCs do in solo duties if they're that role.
Tanks staying in the bad even though they can just walk out, check.
DPS roles completely freestyling their rotation, check and check.
Healers forgetting that they have any buttons other than Cure 1? Check.

[Jaxtaro]

That's why I said you have no empathy, since you have no regard for the fact that other people do value their time. .

People who are playing a video game, signing up for solo queue duty roulette and are impatient are already not "valuing their time", and it is not a lack of empathy that leads to not respecting their need to rush, but a disrespect for the fact that they are burdening others with their poor time managemrnt choices. Empathy and respect are two different things.

Ah, so tanking is "binary", but dps is a stacking function? My man, and I mean this with the utmost empathy, you are utterly delusional.

It is game design and has nothing to do with players, empathy, enabler, etc. You are doing the equivalent of attacking people for recognizing that the sky is blue.

Binary tanking would be "dps instantly dies from attack".

No, binary tanking is both survival and aggro. You are way out of your league on this one.

"Pressuring people". Gods man, are you dramatic.

I'll let the lack of self awareness speak for itself.

Also, since the "3-5" minutes is so often thrown around: 5 minutes added to a 16 min run is 30% more. That's not "nothing

Relative time is irrelevant, a fight that lasts 30 seconds vs 15 isn't a collossal waste of time because it's 100% longer.

That adds up quite a lot of time when doing the content a lot.

If you're repeating the same duty over and over, you have no business burdening other people with your time management woes.

You don't get people to have more patience and understanding when you demand they do all the work

How many times must you be corrected before you stop making up this scenario in your mind? You don't even realize that in your little villian heirarchy, you're talking not to the slacker, but the enabler himself. I don't "demand" anything but for people to not give others grief over irrelevant things like efficiency of a duty roulette instance.

Expert dungeons aren't "extreme duties". They are trivial content.

That was my mistake in words, I intended to say expert roulettes, not call them extreme.

Being able to clear an expert dungeon within the 90 minutes you get is not an achievement, it's the absolute bare minimum.

I have never seen a timer expiration or even a failure in an expert dungeon. Worst case is some dork 20 mimutes in bails over "wasting their time", is replaced, and the duty is done a few minutes later.

[hynaku]

Not everyone that plays online games is there for hardcore gaming challenge but to have fun and hang out with friends. FFXIV was thought supposed to be an online game for casual players.