Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

[Arohk]

I stumbled upon this video on YouTube that gives a pretty good explanation, the game fails at teaching new players how to play and never challenges them in any way to force learning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2BrPCwsXFM

[AllenThyl]

The game slowly introduces various mechanics in different settings. People simply don't learn them, period. That's how you get players in ShB dungeons still running away with a stack. Largely, the playerbase ignores every learning opportunity the game throws around, and the community lets every learning opportunity slide because people just quickly want to be done with their duty. Or use the fig leaf of "the ToS is too draconic" as excuse. Especially mentors, who should be the ones speaking up precisely when not asked. The people who are asking question or want advice are the same people that could also look up the answers on their own. It is very much the ones that don't who need to be engaged with actively.

If you look at logs for on content Alliance raids, you will often see people with uptime in the range of 60-70%. This isn't a "wrong rotation" issue, or "my class wasn't explained". People are legit afk for a third of the fight. In a combat game. No amount of tutorial, difficulty wall, explanation or anything, will overcome people's unwillingness to actually play the game that they pay for and sink thousands of hours into.

[Alyx-Greywind]

The game slowly introduces various mechanics in different settings. People simply don't learn them, period. That's how you get players in ShB dungeons still running away with a stack. Largely, the playerbase ignores every learning opportunity the game throws around, and the community lets every learning opportunity slide because people just quickly want to be done with their duty. Or use the fig leaf of "the ToS is too draconic" as excuse. Especially mentors, who should be the ones speaking up precisely when not asked. The people who are asking question or want advice are the same people that could also look up the answers on their own. It is very much the ones that don't who need to be engaged with actively.

If you look at logs for on content Alliance raids, you will often see people with uptime in the range of 60-70%. This isn't a "wrong rotation" issue, or "my class wasn't explained". People are legit afk for a third of the fight. In a combat game. No amount of tutorial, difficulty wall, explanation or anything, will overcome people's unwillingness to actually play the game that they pay for and sink thousands of hours into.

Alliance Raids are super casual so I expect casuals, I expect players who play like they're playing a party game. I'm not expecting players to learn the rotation of their Job, I just expect them to have fun first.

If people want to learn then we have difficulty in the form of Extreme, Savage and Ultimate for that and those players who engage in that content will learn to play at a much higher level.

The game at its base is designed for ease and while the direction seems to be slowly aiming towards a faster paced direction I don't think the MSQ really prepares players for it.

I actually advocate for casual content being casual as someone who enjoys more difficult content, I will say I haven't -quite- dipped my toes into Ultimate but Extreme and Savage I've enjoyed. After a long day at work or a stressful week I actually appreciate the option to have causal modes that I can fat finger my way through.

I have the option for coordinated content at my disposal.

That said if someone is straight up AFKing in content I will be kicking them or attempting to as Alliance Raids make that tricky.

[AllenThyl]

Alliance Raids are super casual so I expect casuals, I expect players who play like they're playing a party game. I'm not expecting players to learn the rotation of their Job, I just expect them to have fun first.

I understand, I really really do. But fundamentally, this is an action combat game. The overwhelming amount of content in the game itself is combat. And I find it very much a legit question, why there are so many people playing an action combat game, when their definition of "fun at the game" always translates to "being an absolute slacker in combat content", never to "I making an effort in this combat game that I pay for". We aren't talking about savage level performance. We are talking about people with all classes at lvl 100, not using AoEs in ShB+ dungeons. Who then legit get defensive when asked to AoE. This isn't about a bard overcapping their arrow charge a few times, or using the AoE version instead of the single target version, or some ninja accidently fat fingering their mudras and using doton on a boss once or twice. We are talking about people who do it constantly. Who have 70% uptime not because they are legit afk from the game, but because they don't press buttons sometimes during a fight. And none of this has to do with the difficulty of the content. It's an attitude thing. And no amount of game design can fix attitude.

The thing is, this kind of argument doesn't fly in basically every other activity people engage in. If you join a tennis club, but are fundamentally not interested in playing tennis, people will rightly see that as a bad thing. Probably condemn this behavior, possibly even kicking this person out of the club. This isn't even about the skill level, as it is generally accepted and expected that different people will have different skill levels. But when someone is categorically unable to participate in tennis itself (disabilities of any kind, too slow reflexes, any reason really), it is not expected that the others bend around backwards to accommodate this individual. But in FF14, if someone is legit afk in Frontline, and you ask the alliance to kick them, you will get more pushback for asking that, than this person gets for afking. It just cannot be understated the stupidity you will experience in chat. There are players who will tell you to "shut up and just play the game" while there is an afker literally not playing the game.

I actually advocate for casual content being casual as someone who enjoys more difficult content, I will say I haven't -quite- dipped my toes into Ultimate but Extreme and Savage I've enjoyed. After a long day at work or a stressful week I actually appreciate the option to have causal modes that I can fat finger my way through.

Here is the thing though, this isn't a single player game. The moment you get grouped with other people, it's not just your own time anymore. And then it basically becomes a cultural question, of whether or not it is acceptable to impose upon others by playing the game badly. Generally, in the Western hemisphere, the answer is "of course it is, what do I care about other people? I just want to have 'fun' however I want!". That's how you get so many leechers and afkers in PvP, and a community that at large enables and defends this behavior despite it being against the ToS. That's how you get all the drunk and high people in dungeons who die to the most obvious and telegraphed AoE. That's how you get tanks who don't mitigate, DPS that don't AoE, healers that cure1 fish, Samurais that don't even use the purple part of their rotation, or don't use the dot. If someone doesn't think that imposing on others by being bad at the game they play is something bad, then they don't see anything wrong in the first place. No amount of tutorials can fix this cultural attitude.

[Alyx-Greywind]

I understand, I really really do. But fundamentally, this is an action combat game. The overwhelming amount of content in the game itself is combat. And I find it very much a legit question, why there are so many people playing an action combat game, when their definition of "fun at the game" always translates to "being an absolute slacker in combat content", never to "I making an effort in this combat game that I pay for".

I wouldn't consider it an ARPG at all, if you want to look at ARPG style MMOs then at bare minimum you can look at ESO. FFXIV has been pushed as this casual Story centric MMO where they want to accommodate as many players as possible. The development has been pushed with the casual audience in mine for a long while now and that's why we are seeing pushback from the casual audience.

Id also like to comment on your mention of Sports. See when engaging in Sports you more than likely signed up knowing what you were getting into whether that is a casual fun family outing or a Competitive Event. Its a little unfair to compare sports to a game. You can play Sports at any level, I'm disabled but I'd still engage in something fun like Rounders for a laugh! No one is expecting professional or even a base knowledge when you go into these Sports.

Sure as we engage more we get better at the thing we are engaging in but they doesn't mean we automatically start playing with playing with more competitive players. I can use an example of my own. I like playing Darts, I'm alright at Darts but would I want to play with professionals? No, I have no interest, I just like playing casually. The same can be said about any game. Some players really do just want to get home, press their flashy buttons in Roulettes and enjoy the power fantasy, that's very much ok.

The options are there to explore harder content, we have Extremes, we have Savages and we have Ultimates. Not everyone who engages in an activity wants to pursue an increases competitive angle of that very same activity. It's ok for people to just enjoy the activity they are doing so long as the difficulty is outlined as being for them.

This is why Raiding in MMOs is purely optional, this is why no one is forcing anyone into Mythic Plus in WoW, why no one is obliged to compete in NiM Ops in Swtor or play in Ranked Lobbies in the myriad of PvP modes in most MMOs. This is very much the same for real life where no one is obliged to run within a Competitive Team for any Sports they play frequently. Its casual, let players enjoy their space, we got Content we can run for challenge.

[AllenThyl]

I wouldn't consider it an ARPG at all, if you want to look at ARPG style MMOs then at bare minimum you can look at ESO. FFXIV has been pushed as this casual Story centric MMO where they want to accommodate as many players as possible. The development has been pushed with the casual audience in mine for a long while now and that's why we are seeing pushback from the casual audience.

None of it changes the fact that the core gameplay of THIS game is an Action RPG. When creating a character, you HAVE to choose a combat class. Access to other, non-combat content is gated by progression in combat content and behind reaching certain levels in a combat class. Yes, the combat maybe not as fast or snappy compared to others, all very correct assessments. But it still is fundamentally an Action RPG, combat is in real time, both the player character and npcs are executing their actions without waiting or regard for one another. And the main gameplay loop is combat. It's not a tactical RPG, it's not turn based, it's not a shooter, not a grand strategy game, not a card game, not an economic simulator, no matter which side content is available.

Id also like to comment on your mention of Sports. See when engaging in Sports you more than likely signed up knowing what you were getting into whether that is a casual fun family outing or a Competitive Event. Its a little unfair to compare sports to a game. You can play Sports at any level, I'm disabled but I'd still engage in something fun like Rounders for a laugh! No one is expecting professional or even a base knowledge when you go into these Sports.

No, it's not an unfair comparison, why should it? Many sports are games, meaning activities within a confined spatial and temporal context and played following an agreed upon rule set. People engage with them for the sake of engaging with this specific type of game. Even if someone has other interests like "getting fit", if they choose one sport, they have chosen that particular sport. Why then exactly is it so outlandish to expect that the people who have chosen THIS game, spend thousands of hours and quite a lot of money on it as well, to be at least baseline competent at it. I mean, the video in the op lists a few examples of baseline failures like tanks single-pulling, healers cure1 fishing, and dps not using AoE. We can also add a few more examples like ice mages and non-finisher samurais. To circle back to your particular sports, do you accept and play with people who can't even hold the bat or throw the ball, like at all? I think not.

Snip 2nd part

And THIS is precisely the point I am trying to get across here. Participation in THIS GAME is already purely optional. No one is forced to play this game, at all. And activities like PvP, or even dungeon content with other players (thanks to duty supports / trusts) is also optional. Why then is people not even being able to do the bare minimum (no one is talking about savage level performance) when being grouped others, something that should be tolerated? Again, this is a cultural question. Someone who doesn't value other people's time and enjoyment, will of course see nothing wrong in being absolute dead weight to their group at all times. This person will see absolutely nothing wrong with afking in Frontline. Or even in ranked PvP. Or having to go afk for 10-15 minute in the beginning of a dungeon. Or not even learning the base mechanics of the job they are currently playing.

[Zakuyia]

I dont wanna make excuse but some of you sound like ur saying 99.9% of us are bad. The game has various mechanics throughout the game show up. If you refuse to learn thats on you. Infomation exist outside the game to learn your class. People being bad at the game is there choice. I went to balance discord to learn dancer. If I can do it others can. I read the ingame help guide to learn melding. All that jazz. I honestly would say I have grown as a player. Yet if ppl are struggling at lvl 100 look up your class stop pretending info does not exist. Thats just you being lazy and not putting in the effort required to learn. Some rando on M2s told us who takes optimizing classes on savage and ults seriously yet he came there with ilvl 690 gear on. No ppl just refuse to do better and get better is all.

[Besame]

Whilst munching wheat thins and sipping grape juice, I happened upon this post and wondered...Do I see people here that actually think others are duty bound to buy this game and play for others delight??? Simply amazing..Here's a clue. NO, no and NO

[Zakuyia]

Whilst munching wheat thins and sipping grape juice, I happened upon this post and wondered...Do I see people here that actually think others are duty bound to buy this game and play for others delight??? Simply amazing..Here's a clue. NO, no and NO

While sitting here eating ramen I happen upon this gem stone of a comment I assume this person finds it funny to waste other ppl time and hold them prisoner in duties. For shame. Ppl need to earn to pay or just realize if you cant play this.might not be the game for you. Its plain simple concept. If your hodinh ppl back in savage cause u refuse to do better i guess those 7 other ppl need to bend the knee to that one player. If 7 ppl in utimates know the fight but the one person refuses to learn dont kick him or her god no. Keepp them there they payed 60.00 to play this game who are we to disband pf and statics cause of one oerson who refuses to do better right. Lol

[IDontPetLalas]

While sitting here eating ramen I happen upon this gem stone of a comment I assume this person finds it funny to waste other ppl time and hold them prisoner in duties. For shame. Ppl need to earn to pay or just realize if you cant play this.might not be the game for you. Its plain simple concept. If your hodinh ppl back in savage cause u refuse to do better i guess those 7 other ppl need to bend the knee to that one player. If 7 ppl in utimates know the fight but the one person refuses to learn dont kick him or her god no. Keepp them there they payed 60.00 to play this game who are we to disband pf and statics cause of one oerson who refuses to do better right. Lol

You do realize that you're referring to an extremely small proportion of the playerbase when you refer to ultimates, right? We're talking about 5% of the players- then how many And then an even smaller amount fall into joining and not knowing the fight? Right- I'll grant that it happens, but those are likely the outliers.

As Alyx said, there is casual content where there is going to be a mix of players, and in that mix of players some are going to want to aim for higher level content at one point, some want a bit of challenge, but some want to just relax and have some fun- that doesn't " mean "afk and do nothing" should be acceptable. As the majority of players remain at this level and rarely/never do more challenging content, but do many other ting - crafting, RP- I would also say- no, it is not an ARPG, it's not "fundamentally an action combat game "- that is an important part of the game, but it would not account for the game lasting this long.