Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

[Jaxtaro]

Not everyone that plays online games is there for hardcore gaming challenge but to have fun and hang out with friends. FFXIV was thought supposed to be an online game for casual players.

You're right, there should be a full game for casual players, just as there should be for more hardcore players, it's when people confuse the two that things get ugly.

Queuing for duty roulette is literally not for hardcore players, they are a resource to support people who are progressing through the MSQ, and them treating the content as though it was their playground being interfered with by casual or less sweaty players is what leads to arguments like this.

[AllenThyl]

People who are playing a video game, signing up for solo queue duty roulette and are impatient are already not "valuing their time", and it is not a lack of empathy that leads to not respecting their need to rush, but a disrespect for the fact that they are burdening others with their poor time managemrnt choices. Empathy and respect are two different things.

We are basically just running around in circles, mainly because your reading comprehension is absolutely abysmal. The essential question is this: "Is it okay to needlessly waste other people's time?". For you, that answer is "yes absolutely in every situation no matter the context". And there is no argument I can make to convince you otherwise, because the answer to this question is one of culture and personal ethics. You have your rationalizations for dismissing other people's interest, while you put your own interests front and center. It's ego-centrism in it's purest form. Which sadly, is very common in the Western sphere, especially North America.

Relative time is irrelevant, a fight that lasts 30 seconds vs 15 isn't a collossal waste of time because it's 100% longer.

You heard it here first, people. Future Nobel price laureate. 15 seconds, 5 minutes, 50 minutes, 10%, 50%, 500%, all irrelevant.
As I said, you are delusional. I mean that in the full sense of the word, not as some kind of "gotcha" on the forums. You live in a fantasy world when it comes to this game.
To give you some rough numbers: A dungeon with trusts takes about 21-23 minutes, a "normal" run with reasonable engagement from the whole party about 15-18. A good run will be 12-14 minutes, while actual speed runs with non-standard comp will be sub 10 minutes. All for the same dungeon. The fact that you think asking people to play better than the NPCs who have been deliberately tuned to be worse than any player group is some kind of "unreasonable expectation", isn't the superior moral cause that you think it is.

Queuing for duty roulette is literally not for hardcore players, they are a resource to support people who are progressing through the MSQ, and them treating the content as though it was their playground being interfered with by casual or less sweaty players is what leads to arguments like this.

You complain about elitism, while you denigrate a significant chunk of the player population to nothing but your personal servants. What a ridiculous amount of delusional entitlement.

By the way, there is this thread here, about a healer who managed to not deal a single point of damage (not even buffing their party) for a while run of the current Alliance Raid: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...to-be-a-mentor
You are suspiciously absent. Surely, the only moral thing to do is to go and defend this person to the death, right? Against all the elites! Who expect a healer in a lvl 100 dungeon to deal more than 0 damage!

[Jaxtaro]

The only thing that's circular here is the cycle of bad faith arguments you make. Quite frankly, it's pathetic, and I should have called you on the dishonesty early on, but I wrongly assumed you were capable of civil conversation. Unfortunately, you're not. You bandy about sniveling histrionics, throwing mud at the wall, using the most textbook gaslighting tactics, and pretending you have the moral high ground.

You're not fooling anyone, it's as transparent as it is dishonest.

Here's the formula...start with a snide insult, then throw out a strawman and argue against the argument you created, peppering it with just the most bizarre accusations.

As an example...here:

You complain about elitism, while you denigrate a significant chunk of the player population to nothing but your personal servants. What a ridiculous amount of delusional entitlement

There is so much wrong with this statement it should be framed and hung in a museum of bad faith, irrelevant, and uncreative arguments.

1. Recognizing the intent of how the game is designed is not "denigrating", nor is it "delusional", nor is it "entitlement" any more than recognizing the speed limit is "denigrating" to NASCAR drivers.

2. You are not a "servant" when you volunteer for, and derive payment from services rendered. You literally sign up for daily roulettes, but the system is in place to bribe you with a significant bonus of experience points once per day for making yourself available to fill duties for people who are going through the content that you wouldn't receive otherwise, just going through the content There is no world where bribery = indentured servitude.

Here's another..

By the way, there is this thread here, about a healer who managed to not deal a single point of damage (not even buffing their party) for a while run of the current Alliance Raid:*https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...to-be-a-mentor
You are suspiciously absent.*

1. There is nothing "suspicious" about someone not participating in every single thread which touches upon a subject. That is more accusatory, bad faith nonsense

2. We established early on what I defined as a minimum standard for performance was as follows

If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me.

What part of this implies a zero healing performance being acceptable?

This pattern of "ineffective and childish attempt to insult, followed by presenting a crazy argument I never made, followed by gaslighting (things like "delusional"), then by a moral judgement predicated on all of the above as method of avoiding engaging is self evident as an avoidance technique that is reminiscent of how children frame things when called on their shenanigans.

I am dumbfounded that you appear to have a flower. You are, by far, the least qualified "mentor" I have ever encountered. You are a schoolground bully, and frankly, should have mentor status removed on the premise of toxicity alone.

[FlopsyPrince]

I have heard this comment in any MMO I have played.

Some fail to understand that many of us will never be the top player, not matter how much effort we put into it. Our twitch skills just fall short.

I do agree that games should help players understand how to play more effectively, but I am finding that FFXIV often just has far too many skills to use to really find that. I am only at MSQ about 3.3, so I have a lot to go. My Bard main is OK, though dies a lot in some MSQ dungeons/trials/etc. I am not trying to do that, but it happens.

We play to have fun, not to be the top player. Knowing to avoid Extreme is a good thing to learn, but it still gets frustrating, especially since I have to pick and choose the blue quests to run. And the MSQ does get tedious at times.

I am finding I do miss the fully spoken lines in Elder Scrolls Online. I skipped a lot there and a fair bit here, but it is jarring to go to pure text on so much MSQ dialog.

EDIT: Updated "Complete" to "Comment"

[Jaxtaro]

I have heard this complete in any MMO I have played.

Some fail to understand that many of us will never be the top player, not matter how much effort we put into it. Our twitch skills just fall short.

I do agree that games should help players understand how to play more effectively, but I am finding that FFXIV often just has far too many skills to use to really find that. I am only at MSQ about 3.3, so I have a lot to go. My Bard main is OK, though dies a lot in some MSQ dungeons/trials/etc. I am not trying to do that, but it happens.

We play to have fun, not to be the top player. Knowing to avoid Extreme is a good thing to learn, but it still gets frustrating, especially since I have to pick and choose the blue quests to run. And the MSQ does get tedious at times.

I am finding I do miss the fully spoken lines in Elder Scrolls Online. I skipped a lot there and a fair bit here, but it is jarring to go to pure text on so much MSQ dialog.

The good news is that the overwhelming majority of people who you'll play with are patient, helpful, and tolerant and won't give you grief for not optimizing, even making mistakes and getting lost.

In my experience, most folks in game are fine, and not the same as these forum warriors seeking an echo chamber.

[AllenThyl]

What part of this implies a zero healing performance being acceptable?

The linked thread is about a healer doing 0 damage, my words:

By the way, there is this thread here, about a healer who managed to not deal a single point of damage (not even buffing their party) for a while run of the current Alliance Raid:

As I said, abysmal reading comprehension, but too delusional too see it.

This pattern of "ineffective and childish attempt to insult, followed by presenting a crazy argument I never made,

Because you don't understand your own arguments. That is the main issue here. It's why I call you delusional and toxic. Your "arguments" are flat earther level of reasoning. They are a priori. You have one position: "don't expect anything from anyone and never ever say anything that could be constructed as an expectation". I went through your previous posts, it's always the same dribble. No matter how low someone the bar set for even the most basic of competence, at best you "agree" with one certain aspect, but there is never anything that should be done about it. There is no functional difference between you and someone who doesn't have any standards at all. The difference is only in your head, when you look at yourself in the mirror (that's the "essentialism"-part of your delusions).

then by a moral judgement predicated on all of the above as method of avoiding engaging is self evident as an avoidance technique that is reminiscent of how children frame things when called on their shenanigans.

You had ample opportunity to make your positions known easy and simple when it was about respecting other people's time, you didn't. When I gave you several examples of behaviors in duties, the best you had was "as long as no one dies, healer did okay", even though in 80+ dungeons there isn't any need for healers anyway, since even semi-good tanks can keep the whole group alive on their own. By the logic of your own arguments, you are okay with healers doing 0 damage (not a single point, not even rdps by using their raid buff). Of course, you will either not comment on this (because that would mean that you would actually have to commit to something, and that's not something you are able to do), or will respond the typical "i DiDn'T sAy ThAt" deflection rubbish. I can't argue reasoning skills into you, you don't understand your own arguments, nothing I can do about it. The next time this kind of thread pops up again, I'm sure you will be there, harping about some "elites ruining the experience of people just having fun", but deep down, it's just self serving virtue signaling. No sprout will ever rise to greater heights with you, no one will ever learn anything from you or be inspired to be anything greater by you. Everyone is just going to have "fun", except all the people stuck in a group with you, frustrated by 2 drills in a 10 minute fight.

[FlopsyPrince]

The good news is that the overwhelming majority of people who you'll play with are patient, helpful, and tolerant and won't give you grief for not optimizing, even making mistakes and getting lost.

In my experience, most folks in game are fine, and not the same as these forum warriors seeking an echo chamber.

I died 3 times in a recent MSQ Duty, so I did experience that, though I did watch the closing view and no one was there when I got out.

[Jaxtaro]

I died 3 times in a recent MSQ Duty, so I did experience that, though I did watch the closing view and no one was there when I got out.

Yeah, people who have done a duty rarely stick around when it's done. I'm normally impressed that folks tend to stop and wait for a person to go through the pre-fight cutscenes before engaging. There are some parts that feel like they could use a little work, like being able to give endorsements to people who have left a duty, but I know the feeling you're talking about, you feel like you kind of want at least a high five moment, but when the cinematic ends, the instance is empty.

[Jaxtaro]

The linked thread is about a healer doing*0 damage, my words:

This has to be a joke, I cannot bring myself to believe that someone can be this comically incompetent at being dishonest. The part you left out is this:

Surely, the only moral thing to do is to go and defend this person to the death, right? Against all the elites! Who expect a healer in a lvl 100 dungeon to deal more than 0 damage!*

THAT is a strawman, and a really bad one. You know full well that I wouldn't defend this, and as I showed with my own quote that you intentionally ignored in your junior league response that it is well below my clearly stated and unambiguous standard, but to add to the amateur hour, you intentionally left out all of those vital details because you thought you could frame it a completely different way than it was.

And here comes the ineffective insult and gaslighting after literally lying through omission and gaslighting about what was clearly available to read.

As I said, abysmal reading comprehension, but too delusional too see it.

You have yet to show even a scintilla of evidence that you know what either of those terms mean. You should probably stop using them. You are REALLY bad at this.

Because you don't understand your own arguments. That is the main issue here. It's why I call you delusional and toxic.*

Well, not really. You do so because you don't have anything of substance to add, and think that you can just replace a coherent position with enough insults and gaslighting to send me scurrying away. I suspect the tactic has worked for you in the past, but I can assure you "only I know what you're saying, not you" is not the strong argument you think it is.

Your "arguments" are flat earther level of reasoning.

Now it's guilt by false equivalence, the hits just never stop with you.

You had ample opportunity to make your positions known easy and simple when it was about respecting other people's time, you didn't

I don't know how I could have been more clear, but I'm really simple. In normal instances that you voluntarily join to gain the benefit provided to you for carrying someone through, if you are impatient, I DON'T "respect" your time, I am there for the new person, or the person who needs me to help them, not some jerk with time management issues. I have said this from the outset, and hide nothing.

This is compounded by the fact that you're obviously not bright enough to...Mr "reading comprehension" pick up on the multiple times that I've pointed out that I am not the slow one, that I slow no one down and usually am the one being slowed down, that I am just patient with people who need the patience.

[FlopsyPrince]

Yeah, people who have done a duty rarely stick around when it's done. I'm normally impressed that folks tend to stop and wait for a person to go through the pre-fight cutscenes before engaging. There are some parts that feel like they could use a little work, like being able to give endorsements to people who have left a duty, but I know the feeling you're talking about, you feel like you kind of want at least a high five moment, but when the cinematic ends, the instance is empty.

It doesn't bother me a whole lot for it to be empty, but I just can't say "sorry for being the n00b and dying several times...."!