Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[HikariKurosawa]

I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, still, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldow. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on removing dammage given by mobs instead of augmenting the damage dealt. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any differences between the tanks.

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

[CNitsah]

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

[HikariKurosawa]

Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

Yeah I am trying not to argue that it doesn't exist, the thread was made to understand where they are coming from because every time I see people talking about it, they come across as totally illogical and don't articulate their reasoning clearly or at all.

Even in this thread it is still difficult to understand where they are coming from.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah I am trying not to argue that it doesn't exist, the thread was made to understand where they are coming from because every time I see people talking about it, they come across as totally illogical and don't articulate their reasoning clearly or at all.

Even in this thread it is still difficult to understand where they are coming from.

Okay here is 2 questions for you

1) what is your barometer for homogenisation? Let’s say I took what most people would consider the two most similar classes in SCH and SGE. Now let’s look at SCH as the baseline as it’s the older class. How much “more” similar does SGE have to be for you to be consider them homogenised? If I gave SGE deployment would that be enough? Do I have to give SGE a fairy as well? Where is the “sufficiently similar” line for you

2) why is your barometer of homogenisation more important than anyone else’s barometer. If you don’t think SCH and SGE are sufficiently similar but say person a down the street does why is your barometer more important than his one

No offence but basically you asked us to articulate our thoughts then every one you’ve basically gone “nuh uh that’s not homogenisation” if you won’t offer a valid barometer as to what your definition of homogenisation is and why our examples don’t meet it then your opinion is functionally less than worthless because you are just applying personal feelings as an “authority” over others opinions who are actually trying to back themselves up with points

[HikariKurosawa]

Okay here is 2 questions for you

1) what is your barometer for homogenisation? Let’s say I took what most people would consider the two most similar classes in SCH and SGE. Now let’s look at SCH as the baseline as it’s the older class. How much “more” similar does SGE have to be for you to be consider them homogenised? If I gave SGE deployment would that be enough? Do I have to give SGE a fairy as well? Where is the “sufficiently similar” line for you

2) why is your barometer of homogenisation more important than anyone else’s barometer. If you don’t think SCH and SGE are sufficiently similar but say person a down the street does why is your barometer more important than his one

No offence but basically you asked us to articulate our thoughts then every one you’ve basically gone “nuh uh that’s not homogenisation” if you won’t offer a valid barometer as to what your definition of homogenisation is and why our examples don’t meet it then your opinion is functionally less than worthless because you are just applying personal feelings as an “authority” over others opinions who are actually trying to back themselves up with points

1) If they don't play the same, there isn't homogenization by definition. Scholar has passive healing through the fairy, sage needs to deal damage to get healing through a similar but completely different mechanic. If sage's bits passively healed in the form of being robotic fairies, sure I'd say there is homogenization. That's not how they play though. You're just conflating the two jobs because they both are barrier healers. None of scholar's output is based on damage dealt, and that's the primary identity of sage. Even the ways their barriers work are completely different.

2) it's not, in the end it's up to the devs to decide who they want to take seriously. Going off what you've been posting, it's a very hard sell that there is homogenization in this game.

[Supersnow845]

1) If they don't play the same, there isn't homogenization by definition. Scholar has passive healing through the fairy, sage needs to deal damage to get healing through a similar but completely different mechanic. If sage's bits passively healed in the form of being robotic fairies, sure I'd say there is homogenization. That's not how they play though. You're just conflating the two jobs because they both are barrier healers. None of scholar's output is based on damage dealt, and that's the primary identity of sage. Even the ways their barriers work are completely different.

2) it's not, in the end it's up to the devs to decide who they want to take seriously. Going off what you've been posting, it's a very hard sell that there is homogenization in this game.

So both barrier healers have a means of applying a passive regen that when factoring in fairy potency is literally designed to be functionally exactly the same potency. Both have a button to temporarily buff the output and both have functionally 100% uptime on said regen but since SGE has to actually do damage to attain said regen (even though they are functionally never not going to be doing damage) then it’s not homogenisation?

I’m sorry but your definition of homogenisation is literally “if the jobs aren’t exactly the same sans their name they aren’t homogenised”

That’s such a wildly restrictive definition as to be functionally useless in discussion

[HikariKurosawa]

So both barrier healers have a means of applying a passive regen that when factoring in fairy potency is literally designed to be functionally exactly the same potency. Both have a button to temporarily buff the output and both have functionally 100% uptime on said regen but since SGE has to actually do damage to attain said regen (even though they are functionally never not going to be doing damage) then it’s not homogenisation?

I’m sorry but your definition of homogenisation is literally “if the jobs aren’t exactly the same sans their name they aren’t homogenised”

That’s such a wildly restrictive definition as to be functionally useless in discussion

the process of making things uniform or similar.
"the fear of cultural homogenization is a barrier to some multinational businesses"

Yeah I don't really see it.

[ArtaVallian]

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

No, the core gameplay is not that different, especially not compared to how it used to be in StB and even in early ShB. I just discovered that they removed DRG's mechanic where they maintained a meter by quickly completing combos. The meter was the countdown for a damage buff window. The better you were at keeping up your combos, the longer it would last. That's gone, now. That was the only thing besides the jumps that made it stand out, and it really added to the fun. But because they want to stick to their models of uptime and downtime and such with savage they gutted that, and it feels not much different from how I remember SAM.

Also, for SMN, I liked how they got rid of some jank parts of it, but I'm now very tired of not being able to double or triple-weave for most of it. My dots were removed, and it was oh, well, but they didn't give me anything else for it. My pets don't even passively damage, anymore, even though they easily could with ranged moves. But really, SMN feels like a hollow version of itself. You can choose the order of your moves, but you have to use all of them... except maybe Ifrit's, which might not be worth the damage with their long cast time. The gauge is pretty much useless because it's not building to anything, it's only good for using two resources that have little impact. I want my 3 resources back. I want my pets back. I want my triple-weaving back. We're just a worse RDM right now with the order of hard and fast casts shifted around a bit.

And SCH pretty much feels like SGE. It can either have a shield effect or have a pure healing effect on many of its moves. It only has a 1 button rotation like all the other healers. It has one dot, just like SGE. It used to be plague king, like SMN, applying and spreading dots. If they even just gave back the dot spreading to SCH and let it deal more damage with a move depending on the number of dots on an enemy like how SMN used to do, it would feel so much better again. But nope, they don't want healers damaging. They don't want healers to be fun, clearly, from the 1 dot rotations. Don't have fun, just heal.

Those are just some examples.