Can anyone clearly explain "job homogenization" in this game?

[Valence]

Downtime, uptime, you'll never balance the game around just those variables tied to damage and nothing else if you want variety. Trying to argue or half ass anything within that lack of parameters to play around will only result in migraines because it's not objectively solvable. Since the current battle system design is sanctified to the devs, their only option for balance is to use the holy sandpaper on jobs in order to remove their rough edges so that they all fit neatly into the same hole.

I tried to do it on the other post that was done so I’ll try it again here

Classes in an MMO can be defined by their damage profile (I don’t mean tanks healers DPS support) I mean how their damage is applied and the change in the rate it applies over the course of the fight. There are in my mind 5 “classical” damage profiles in an MMO

1) builder spender- builds a lot of resources using filler then dumps them all within a particular window

2) Sustained damage- doesn’t really care about anyone else just does consistent damage over the fight

3) ramper- has to set themselves up and work towards their eventual higher damage

4) DOT’er/debuffer- focuses on sustained damage via application of damaging debuffs

5) buffer- focuses the overwhelming majority of time and space on buffing others DPS, has little to no self damage


Now let’s looks at the 14 jobs. If we go back to “classical 14” (ie the HW era) these distinctions were far more defined. SCH and SMN were DOT’ers, BLM and PLD were sustained, NIN was a builder spender, MNK was a ramper, AST was a buffer etc. all of the jobs had unique damage profiles that led to unique minute to minute gameplay

Now contrast this with the modern jobs. Every single job in this game (arguably sans SGE) has a massive nuke that is designed explicitly to be pressed once per 2 minutes (or per minute for the tanks). And every job that has a mechanic to buff others damage has that buff out on exactly a 2 minute CD. More and more skills have been altered to allow to stacking into a 2 minute burst (enshroud and awakening having 100 gauge despite needing 50 to burst encouraging triple use of the burst because the 2 minute button gives you a “burst again button”)/lilys being neutral so they are a gain to sync with the buff window and dump misery/moves getting charged allowing you to hold charges for the burst window such as phlegma.

In short everything has coalesced around the two minute burst window and since buffs are multiplicative the burst window becomes so strong that the other styles of combat become unable to keep up and get changed to fit into the buff meta (this is why PLD was redone in EW) Every change they give BLM is designed to push more potency into the burst window so they can burst better (such as 3 charges of xeno and 2 leylines to always keep it aligned with the burst window). Our two DOT’ers basically lost their DOT’s and are now generic buff feeder jobs with pointless buffs and burst focused rotations (SMN especially). The rampers now basically just get buttons that allows them to burst immediately (such as plentiful harvest on RPR) and the buffers have been reduced from meaningful buff maintenance to generic big buffs in the burst window and set and forget buffs outside of it (DNC, BRD and AST)

So in short every job is now just a flavour of builder spender because the only thing that matters is the 2 minute burst window This has also led to the removal of meaningful utility. Between 21 classes we literally have ONE skill that fits the bill of true utility; expedient. Without utility and an overwhelming focus on damage with no alternatives the jobs feel flat and stale, nobody but SCH can offer anything to the party that’s not just a flavour of damage because every ability is either “I do damage” “I make someone else do damage” or “I make the boss hit us for less damage”

Now since every job focuses on building for the two minute window every job hates downtime and hates two target cleave (sans PCT) because the way they have been designed means they really only work in full uptime 2 single target savage and basically every other fight design is just “compensation” for their inherent flaws (jobs like RPR hate not getting gauge in downtime, SAM can’t get stickers etc)


So basically every job has been shoved down into a generic builder spender that only functions on full uptime single target, hates downtime and the majority of its potency comes from big disconnected nukes you press in the burst window. That’s why every job feels homogenised

Adding to this you can also check the history of big job partial or total reworks and they stop before Stormblood jobs. SAM, RDM, DNC, GNB, RPR, SGE, all have had some changes happening here and there don't get me wrong (kaiten removed), but they're still at the core the same jobs with the same mechanics. Now go back before... MCH? Has nothing left from the original. DRK? Same, just hasn't gone through a huge rework but saw things constantly removed from it every expansion until not much remained. AST? The job that gets partially or completely reworked every expansion? MNK? Reworked. NIN? Reworked (but perhaps for the best?). DRG? Finally starting to get reworked in depth this expansion too, and let's not talk about BLM. SMN got completely reworked into something else last expansion. Healers got it the least, but they still got a lot of changes whether it's WHM or SCH. PLD completely reworked, WAR as well over time.

[CNitsah]

I always felt like the "job homogenization" was an exageration. As much as I totally agree for tanks (nearly every skill has it's counterpart in every job), it's not true for DPS and Healers (except maybe WHM and AST sharing some similarities - I didn't play them enough at high lvl).

Even the arguments presented in this thread talk more about job simplification than homogenization. Or resullt of the 2 min meta that was asked by the players for years before everyone realized it was a bad idea. I swear to god, people in this game are really bad at reflecting on and analyzing the problems, and often end pointing a real symptoms under a fake problem. Except for tanks (and maybe WHM and AST), homogenization is not a problem, 2 min meta and simplification are. None of the melee ranged or magic jobs feel the same. Even the barrier Healers don't feel the same.

The same kind of argument can be made about content, where people claim it's predictability problem or the time between patch being too long, when the problem is that the content has no shelf life. Unpreductability would be nice plus, but if the content continue to be one time and never again, not being predictable and being every 3.5 month instead of 4.5 won't change anything, the problem is the nature of the content we get.

And then people complain about the dev team being out of touch (well, that's not totally untrue), when their complaints continue to be out there, pointing at problems that are, at best a result of the core problem.

[HikariKurosawa]

You're clearly not interested in arguing in good faith, but the question is still worth answering for other readers.

I'm not interested in arguing about this period. This thread is for you to explain to me and state your case about homogenization. I personally do not believe this game has homogenization, I am just interested in actually understanding where the people who believe it does are coming from.

It's also good for you to put it into clear words so it's out there in an organized thread.

[HikariKurosawa]

I always felt like the "job homogenization" was an exageration. As much as I totally agree for tanks (nearly every skill has it's counterpart in every job), it's not true for DPS and Healers (except WHM and AST sharing some similarities).

Even the arguments presented in this thread talk more about job simplification than homogenization. Or resullt of the 2 min meta that was asked by the players for years before everyone realized it was a bad idea. I swear to god, people in this game are really bad at reflecting on and analyzing the problems, and often end pointing a real problem under a fake problem. Except for tanks (and maybe WHM and AST), homogenization is not a problem, 2 min meta and simplification are. None of the melee ranged or magic jobs feel the same. Even the barrier Healers don't feel the same.

The same kind of argument can be made about content, where people claim it's predictability problem or the time between patch being too long, when the problem is that the content has no shelf life. Unpreductability would be nice plus, but if the content continue to be one time and never again, not being predictable and being every 3.5 month instead of 4.5 won't change anything, the problem is the nature of the content we get.

And then people complain about the dev team being out of touch (well, that's not totally untrue), when their complaints continue to be out there, pointing at problems that are, at best a result of the core problem.

I don't see the homogenization with tanks though. How is warrior gameplay even remotely similar to paladin or gunbreaker? I don't know anything about dark knight, but it seems to be the same in being totally different than the other three.

Every tank simply needs to have cooldowns for tankbusters. That said, they are all different executions and forms of the same result. It's like my icecream argument. Tank cooldowns are different flavors of icecream. If you look at the way they play rotationally and how they feel though, every single tank is wildly different. Even if you stripped away all animations and made it so they were hitting with fists and wearing plain clothes, they would feel and flow completely differently.

Reading through this thread is amusing though. People really can't clearly articulate how homogenization exists in this game. They just say "it's homogenization1!!" without actually explaining their reasoning. I think it's good because maybe you'll learn to appreciate the differences through your failures to express yourselves.

"DPS all deals damage and has 2 minute burst windows that's homogenization!" "Healers all heal and two are barrier two are pure healers that's homogenization!!" "Tanks all have tank cooldowns!! Homogenization!!" "They keep simplifying jobs that's homogenization!!"

[CNitsah]

Every tank simply needs to have cooldowns for tankbusters. That said, they are all different executions and forms of the same result. It's like my icecream argument. Tank cooldowns are different flavors of icecream. If you look at the way they play rotationally and how they feel though, every single tank is wildly different. Even if you stripped away all animations and made it so they were hitting with fists and wearing plain clothes, they would feel and flow completely differently.

I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldown. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on decreasing dammage dealt by mobs instead of decreasing the damage you get. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any tanks is.

[HikariKurosawa]

I think tank are homogenized in the sense that you can play one, you will be able to play the others. It's the same mentality with every tank. Sure they all have a dps gimmick, still, but for the rest it's essentially the same. I think could totally create a tank without cooldow. For example a tank that get a "minus 15% damage" as long as it does its combos well, wouldn't have the 40% CD and invulnerability, and could have a bigger one linked to the moment he uses its burst. Or a tank based on removing dammage given by mobs instead of augmenting the damage dealt. It's just some idea I came up with in the past 10 min, that I didn't though much about (so no need to go "It wouldn't work in XIV because ..."), but my point is more you can imagine doing thing another way.

But yeah, despite thinking the tank are the most homogenized, I also think they still get enough individuality on the "cosmetic/skills" side. But when it comes to the mentality/the gameplay loop behind them, it's the same process in its core, with a few tweak. Compared to Dragoon, Ninja and Samurai for example, it's not the same gameplay with a few tweak. the way each plays is more different than any differences between the tanks.

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

[CNitsah]

Yeah I agree, they have room and it is possible to create much more different tanks and jobs in general. I just don't really see the issue with the minor level of "homogenization" that exists, and would argue it is necessary for the current abilities of the jobs that exist in order for them to be viable. It's such a low level of shared function that I can't really see it as homogenization. The core gameplay of every single job is wildly different in this game.

Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

[HikariKurosawa]

Yeah, I also don't think it's too much of a problem, but I can also see how it can legitimately be one for other players. It wouldn't be fair to totally dismiss the argument when I can see it to some degree with some jobs. That's why I talked about the problem being exagerated, not about being a non problem.

Yeah I am trying not to argue that it doesn't exist, the thread was made to understand where they are coming from because every time I see people talking about it, they come across as totally illogical and don't articulate their reasoning clearly or at all.

Even in this thread it is still difficult to understand where they are coming from.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah I am trying not to argue that it doesn't exist, the thread was made to understand where they are coming from because every time I see people talking about it, they come across as totally illogical and don't articulate their reasoning clearly or at all.

Even in this thread it is still difficult to understand where they are coming from.

Okay here is 2 questions for you

1) what is your barometer for homogenisation? Let’s say I took what most people would consider the two most similar classes in SCH and SGE. Now let’s look at SCH as the baseline as it’s the older class. How much “more” similar does SGE have to be for you to be consider them homogenised? If I gave SGE deployment would that be enough? Do I have to give SGE a fairy as well? Where is the “sufficiently similar” line for you

2) why is your barometer of homogenisation more important than anyone else’s barometer. If you don’t think SCH and SGE are sufficiently similar but say person a down the street does why is your barometer more important than his one

No offence but basically you asked us to articulate our thoughts then every one you’ve basically gone “nuh uh that’s not homogenisation” if you won’t offer a valid barometer as to what your definition of homogenisation is and why our examples don’t meet it then your opinion is functionally less than worthless because you are just applying personal feelings as an “authority” over others opinions who are actually trying to back themselves up with points

[HikariKurosawa]

Okay here is 2 questions for you

1) what is your barometer for homogenisation? Let’s say I took what most people would consider the two most similar classes in SCH and SGE. Now let’s look at SCH as the baseline as it’s the older class. How much “more” similar does SGE have to be for you to be consider them homogenised? If I gave SGE deployment would that be enough? Do I have to give SGE a fairy as well? Where is the “sufficiently similar” line for you

2) why is your barometer of homogenisation more important than anyone else’s barometer. If you don’t think SCH and SGE are sufficiently similar but say person a down the street does why is your barometer more important than his one

No offence but basically you asked us to articulate our thoughts then every one you’ve basically gone “nuh uh that’s not homogenisation” if you won’t offer a valid barometer as to what your definition of homogenisation is and why our examples don’t meet it then your opinion is functionally less than worthless because you are just applying personal feelings as an “authority” over others opinions who are actually trying to back themselves up with points

1) If they don't play the same, there isn't homogenization by definition. Scholar has passive healing through the fairy, sage needs to deal damage to get healing through a similar but completely different mechanic. If sage's bits passively healed in the form of being robotic fairies, sure I'd say there is homogenization. That's not how they play though. You're just conflating the two jobs because they both are barrier healers. None of scholar's output is based on damage dealt, and that's the primary identity of sage. Even the ways their barriers work are completely different.

2) it's not, in the end it's up to the devs to decide who they want to take seriously. Going off what you've been posting, it's a very hard sell that there is homogenization in this game.