Why people are bad at the game, and why they never learn to play it.

[AllenThyl]

All discussion so far has been explicitly framed with regards to people not even doing the bare minimum like using AoE in a dungeon as dps.

No it hasn't, it's been wildly all over the place, such as being big mad that tank isn't pulling fast enough, to throwing around terms like "lazy", "holding people prisoner", even referring to uptime while parousing the logs that are against TOS precisely because of this reason, etc. None of that is in the spirit of the video, or at identifying and addressing play that you determine to be unacceptable, as though people are performing puppets at your beck and call.

My man, you write a lot, and it's all very dramatic, but you say very little.
Tell us then, in clear and easy terms, what do YOU think is the very baseline competence at this game that should be brought into, let's say, an expert dungeon (i.e. current max level content)? Nothing? At least a little bit? Should a tank have tank stance on, or is it ok if they don't? Should a healer heal at least a little bit? Or is it also ok if they don't? Should a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal, or is it ok if they basically stand around the whole fight healing nothing, thanks to tanks pumping out enough healing to keep the party alive, so there isn't even any need for a healer in the first place? How about people who are just afk and on follow? Is that also ok? Or should everyone at least contribute a little bit? Should DPS at least attempt to d do their rotation, or is it okay if they just use whatever has the coolest animation? I mention the last one, because I once had a dragoon in EW expert roulette who would spam their Heaven's Trust skill, which is the 3rd part of the combo, meaning they constantly only did 100 potency. But it looks cool, I guess. So come on man, put some fishes on the table (or whatever the expression in your locality is), and actually contribute to this discussion as well.

[Jaxtaro]

My man, you write a lot, and it's all very dramatic, but you say very little.
Tell us then, in clear and easy terms, what do YOU think is the very baseline competence at this game that should be brought into, let's say, an expert dungeon (i.e. current max level content)? Nothing? At least a little bit? Should a tank have tank stance on, or is it ok if they don't? Should a healer heal at least a little bit? Or is it also ok if they don't? Should a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal, or is it ok if they basically stand around the whole fight healing nothing, thanks to tanks pumping out enough healing to keep the party alive, so there isn't even any need for a healer in the first place? How about people who are just afk and on follow? Is that also ok? Or should everyone at least contribute a little bit? Should DPS at least attempt to d do their rotation, or is it okay if they just use whatever has the coolest animation? I mention the last one, because I once had a dragoon in EW expert roulette who would spam their Heaven's Trust skill, which is the 3rd part of the combo, meaning they constantly only did 100 potency. But it looks cool, I guess. So come on man, put some fishes on the table (or whatever the expression in your locality is), and actually contribute to this discussion as well.

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that I don't insist on good performance, as you have a long way to go before your snide little attempted insults are even marginally up to par.

The base level competence is simply to be able to queue up and contribute in their role. If a tank has their stance on and moves forward through the dungeon keeping aggro, it's fine by me, I can live through it. If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me. For DPS it's even lower since even then, they can be carried while dead for the most part.

A far bigger problem is toxic teammates pretending that they have accomplished something by beating up on people over content they have on farm status, like to 50th time they did Alexandria.

[AllenThyl]

Yeah, it's probably a good thing that I don't insist on good performance

Yeah, probably is.

YThe base level competence is simply to be able to queue up and contribute in their role. If a tank has their stance on and moves forward through the dungeon keeping aggro, it's fine by me, I can live through it. If the healer can stay alive and everyone stays alive, it's fine by me.

Oh, so you DO have an expectation regarding the performance of people. Because I did have to endure a lvl 60 dungeon once with a tank who didn't active their tank stance for the first 5 minutes, and only used single target attacks, so I couldn't use any of my skills, because that tank had trouble just keeping aggro from the healer who was only healing that tank. As well as healers who simply refused to heal. Good thing we are in agreement for at least those two specific cases that people should to better.

For DPS it's even lower since even then, they can be carried while dead for the most part.

Why? No really, why? Why is it that the dps role get a pass to be completely useless, while tanks and healers have to fulfill at least the basic functions of their roll? Because it's possible? Quite frankly, your attitude is pretty toxic in that regard. You enable the worst kind of leechers with that kind of thinking. The worst thing about this is, that you are so lacking in empathy, you don't even understand how this kind of "just carry me" attitude causes other people to be frustrated. People who queue as tanks and healers have to do basically all the work, not only for their own role, but also to carry lazy dps. As VanillaWaver said, the people who get grouped in duty finder are not friends. And it is incredibly disrespectful and rude to demand and expect strangers to show a level of patience and understanding for non-participation in a game that is usually only found between people with genuine history.

YA far bigger problem is toxic teammates pretending that they have accomplished something by beating up on people over content they have on farm status, like to 50th time they did Alexandria.

Allow me to be frank here. I think YOU are so used to being carried through content, you don't even know what an experience a group made out of people with your attitude is. When I do mentor roulette, I sometimes get to join a dungeon in the aftermath of such a group. With 12+ mins already elapsed, and with luck the 1st boss killed. Where everyone frustrated each other, because everyone was barely doing the minimum, often even less. The tank would not mitigate at all, but pull large. The healer was cure 1 fishing and not even using the proc when it happened. DPS didn't bother as well, so naturally every pull ended in disaster, since the mobs didn't die fast enough, thus overwhelming what little healing output the healer could be arsed to do.

[Jaxtaro]

Yeah, probably is.

Oh, so you DO have an expectation regarding the performance of people. ... Good thing we are in agreement for at least those two specific cases that people should to better.

Yes, of course, there are super basic things that are clearly reasinable expectations, and your experiences justify frustration in this case.

Why? No really, why? Why is it that the dps role get a pass to be completely useless, while tanks and healers have to fulfill at least the basic functions of their roll?

Because they generally have much less value than the other two roles, especially tanks. The only time they would not be carryable is in the presence of triggers like timers, or if healer MP were an actual resource which required conservation. None of these are true in normal content where this topic deals with outside of super rare duties with DPS checks, like Atherochemical plant kind of has.. You've seen it a hundred times, tank survives and solos 2/3 of a boss fight. DPS can't carry a box of Kleenex in group content, and without carry potential, there comes lower expectations. That's just the way it is.

Because it's possible? Quite frankly, your attitude is pretty toxic ... frustrated

.

See above for the ACTUAL reasons and not your pulpit proclomations and moral grandstanding.

You ARE right about one thing however, I don't care, even a little that someone is frustrated in a duty finder duty at the rate of progress. This is not out of a lack of empathy, but out of disgust for the egocentrism of someone who joins a duty finder whose entire premise is to carry, then is mad thatbthey are carrying. That extends even further to someone with a flower who is being an insufferable egotist.

People who queue as tanks and healers have to do basically all the work, not only for their own role, but also to carry lazy dps

.

You don't "have" to do anything, you choose to join a duty to derive the benefit from carrying people, that you are frustrated by your choice is an attitude problem that you need to resolve.

Allow me to be frank here. I think YOU are so used to being carried through content, you don't even know what an experience a group made out of people with your attitude is. . ...

So yeah, you would be wrong. I tend to put any content on farm status within a week of it being released. I tend to use duty support to get to know the content where the entire team of NPC's exist to be inefficient, but be programmed to get boss mechanics, so I guess if I'm "carried" by anyone it's a team of NPC's. If I join where real people exist, I already know the encounters, and play hyper efficiently. I simply don't expect other people in duty support to be copies of me or have the same philosophy as me. I want to be a source of calm fun, not shrill toxicity.

[AllenThyl]

Yes, of course, there are super basic things that are clearly reasinable expectations, and your experiences justify frustration in this case.

Why though? Why is it reasonable to expect healers and tanks to do their basic function, but DPS are exempt from the same kind of expectation doing their role (i.e. damage).

Because they generally have much less value than the other two roles, especially tanks.

Why? DPS can tank, not as well as tanks, yes, but they can. Similarly, tanks and healers do damage, but not as well DPS. So again, why do tanks and healers have to fulfill their main roll, but DPS are given a free pass?

The only time they would not be carryable is in the presence of triggers like timers, or if healer MP were an actual resource which required conservation.

The first 2 levelling dungeons of every expansion can be quite spicy even for experienced people when doing wall to wall pulls (especially for some tanks due to lack of mitigation tools at that level). DPS not doing their job can lead to tanks running out of mitigations and healers having to pump out GCD heals. And that actually can wipe a group.

You've seen it a hundred times, tank survives and solos 2/3 of a boss fight. DPS can't carry a box of Kleenex in group content, and without carry potential, there comes lower expectations. That's just the way it is.

Ohh, "that's just the way it is" ... I see. Why precisely does that kind of argument only apply to lazy DPS? Why doesn't it apply to people expecting DPS to do their job? I mean, that's just the way it is, "git gud or git kicked". Also, should I introduce you to the "the tank held the party hostage for half an hour" crowd? I'm sure this would be an amazing conversation.

You ARE right about one thing however, I don't care, even a little that someone is frustrated in a duty finder duty at the rate of progress. This is not out of a lack of empathy, but out of disgust for the egocentrism of someone who joins a duty finder whose entire premise is to carry, then is mad thatbthey are carrying. That extends even further to someone with a flower who is being an insufferable egotist.

No, don't delude yourself here, that is complete lack of empathy. Literally. You have shown yourself so far to be completely unable to understand that other people value their time as well. The main issue of essentialism is the attribution of characteristics in the absence of actions that would justify these characteristics. You so far have been the most egocentrical and delusion poster in here, with you expecting that the healers and tanks should be carrying the whole run on top of performing the additional duties that come with these rolls. But I am really happy to see you post here, because usually the leechers with this attitude keep their mouth shut in these discussions so as to not have the spotlight shone on them. But I presume the constant emboldening by the enabler community has rotted away any leftovers of humility.

You don't "have" to do anything, you choose to join a duty to derive the benefit from carrying people, that you are frustrated by your choice is an attitude problem that you need to resolve.

Ooohh, is that so? So when I queue for a duty directly, I get to be the lazy bum demanding other people to carry me?
The main issue here is, that you don't even understand how damaging and toxic this attitude is. You don't understand how the duty finder experience will be negatively impacted when a critical mass of "I don't care, I'm just here for fun" players is reached and normal raids get vote abandoned because there aren't enough people who understand how to solve the mechanics. I have experienced Royal City of Rabanstre runs fall apart at the 2nd boss, because not enough people were able to dodge the mechanics, so there wasn't enough dps on the sand orbs.

So yeah, you would be wrong. I tend to put any content on farm status within a week of it being released. I tend to use duty support to get to know the content where the entire team of NPC's exist to be inefficient, but be programmed to get boss mechanics, so I guess if I'm "carried" by anyone it's a team of NPC's. If I join where real people exist, I already know the encounters, and play hyper efficiently. I simply don't expect other people in duty support to be copies of me or have the same philosophy as me. I want to be a source of calm fun, not shrill toxicity.

*snort*
You want to be a source of "calm fun", but you don't care if you are a major source of "silent frustration", do you?
Also, what the heck does "put any content on farm status within a week" even mean? Are you progging the Allied Society dailies or what? "Play hyper efficiently" ... and what did you optimize for that efficiency? Lowest number of button presses to not risk getting kicked for appearing afk? Because it's obviously not clear speed you are going for, given your cavalier attitude towards baseline expectations for DPS players.

[Jaxtaro]

Why though? Why is it reasonable to expect healers and tanks to do their basic function, but DPS are exempt from the same kind of expectation doing their role (i.e. damage). .

At any point, did you see anyone in this discussion say that DPS are exempt from basic requirements? No, what you saw was that standards are lower because encounter design makes their value negligible enough that one can be completely missing and it has no impact on the binary success or failure of the duty. This doesn't exempt them from engaging at a minimum level.

Why? DPS can tank, not as well as tanks, yes, but they can..

No they can't, because they have no way of reliably controlling aggro. They can sometimes temporarily survive if focused, but that's not tanking. Tanking is a binary. You either have the tools or you don't, and DPS don't havr the tools.

Similarly, tanks and healers do damage, but not as well DPS.

I see you're entirely unfamiliar with the gaming concept of stackability, and how it influences encounter design.

Damage, as a function stacks. All members of a group can do it simultaneously, whereas Tanking doesn't, it is unique to tanks, as is healing to healers. Both of those roles are essential in a binary pass/fail condition. There are pass/fail conditions to ensure that "if tank does not do minimum performance of job, then fail", which holds true also for healers. This means that if you are to succeed at the bare minimum of finishing a duty, you must perform at the if/then level.

This isn't opinion, or players' expectations, this is just plain old encounter design. DPS very very rarely has a pass/fail condition, and even when they do, it is set so low that the likelihood of it affecting the outcome of a normal duty is so low as to be nonexistent.

The first 2 levelling dungeons of every expansion can be quite spicy even for experienced people when doing wall to wall pulls (especially for some tanks due to lack of mitigation tools at that level). DPS not doing their job can lead to tanks running out of mitigations and healers having to pump out GCD heals. And that actually can wipe a group.

Your failure analysis is flawed. The fail point in this very rare scenario isn't DPS, it's the tank. There is no requirement to WTW while undergeared, and them doing so is what leads to wipes. That is a choice that the tank has, and has nothing to do with a binary pass/fail condition of DPS.

Ohh, "that's just the way it is" ... I see. Why precisely does that kind of argument only apply to lazy DPS?

Yeah, repeating a stupid question over and over doesn't make it all of a sudden have a different answer. The success or failure of a duty doesn't hinge on the DPS role like it does the other two. Take it up with Square, not me that DPS players have less impact than the other two roles.

Breaking this into two posts due to character limit.

[Jaxtaro]

You have shown yourself so far to be completely unable to understand that other people value their time as well.

No, you mistake not having any interest in pressuring people in duty finder to hit a pace that is beyond the success or failure point with some bizarre concept of "person playing a game queues for a duty with 3 perfect strangers and expects others to value getting the duty done 3-5 minutes faster as much as they do".

You so far have been the most egocentrical and delusion poster in here, with you expecting that the healers and tanks should be carrying the whole run on top of performing the additional duties that come with these rolls.

I'll just leave the smarmy, ineffective attempts to insult and obscurantism here. I don't know what you think you'll gain by acting indignant, it's a poor substitute for a valid argument.

Ooohh, is that so? So when I queue for a duty directly, I get to be the lazy bum demanding other people to carry me?

Not if you have any integrity. There is a difference between having the ability and not using it and expecting everyone else to play at your expectation level. A difference you SHOULD understand, but either don't, or don't care.

The main issue here is, that you don't even understand how damaging and toxic this attitude is. (blah blah)

No, the main issue is that pressuring people in normal content is wrong. If you cannot fathom the plebian stench of other people not rising to your level of play, then stay out of normal content.

I have experienced Royal City of Rabanstre runs fall apart at the 2nd boss, because not enough people were able to dodge the mechanics, so there wasn't enough dps on the sand orbs.

The topic was expert dungeons, 4 man content, changing to optional alliance raids and boss mechanics. Try to stick to the subject, but since you felt the need, we can go there.

Sometimes raids fail. This is a fact of life, especially with a pick up raid such as one finds in duty finder. If you aren't prepared for that potential inevitability going in, that's a you problem.

Also, what the heck does "put any content on farm status within a week" even mean?

The topic was 4 man extreme duties, and the meaning is that you move past learning content

...it's obviously not clear speed you are going for, given your cavalier attitude towards baseline expectations for DPS players.

What my expectations for other people are has no bearing on my play. Trying to optimize progress per unit of time for my own performance, something that differs with each role, has no impact on what I expect other people to do. You seem to not get that expectations on yourself can differ from your expectations of other people.