7.1 and Bards got nothing...

[mallleable]

Something I've wondered is would BRD feel more bard-like if damage buffing took a bit of a backseat in favor of more unique buffs. First, delete the coda system, and just make Battle Voice upgrade to Radiant Finale. And then like Wanderer's Minute could be BRD's only damage rotation song, like shorten its cool down, and duration so you have to press it more often to keep the song rolling. Move Heartbreak reduction procs off Mage's Ballad, and move them to Burst Shot, and make MB like a 10% magic mit + 10% chance that spells have no MP cost buff. Rework Army's Paeon so it's like 10% physical mit + party movement speed buff, and move the personal haste buff to WM. This would technically simply the song rotation, but it would mean that all proc mechanics are active all the time, might make getting KO'd a little less punishing, and make each song a little more unique in terms of what kind of party buff they are which might be a worthwhile tradeoff.

[Connor]

Something I've wondered is would BRD feel more bard-like if damage buffing took a bit of a backseat in favor of more unique buffs. First, delete the coda system, and just make Battle Voice upgrade to Radiant Finale. And then like Wanderer's Minute could be BRD's only damage rotation song, like shorten its cool down, and duration so you have to press it more often to keep the song rolling. Move Heartbreak reduction procs off Mage's Ballad, and move them to Burst Shot, and make MB like a 10% magic mit + 10% chance that spells have no MP cost buff. Rework Army's Paeon so it's like 10% physical mit + party movement speed buff, and move the personal haste buff to WM. This would technically simply the song rotation, but it would mean that all proc mechanics are active all the time, might make getting KO'd a little less punishing, and make each song a little more unique in terms of what kind of party buff they are which might be a worthwhile tradeoff.

I could certainly get behind having Bard as a more ‘defensive’/‘utility’ focused party support while Dancer remained more ‘offence’ focused. It’d definitely be nice to see their support become more diversified and unique. I feel like the devs kinda use ‘damage up’ as a ‘token support effect’ instead of thinking up more interesting and fun ways to support the party, so seeing them rely less on those kinds of skills would probably be a good thing.
And it’s not like they’d have to disappear entirely either. Like if there were MP costs on songs there could be a ‘Foe Requiem’ type filler song that increases damage taken by enemies, but at a fairly low value to compensate for potential high uptime. So there’d still be things the Bard could bring for when the ‘defensive’ support isn’t required. Honestly I’ve even say for them to go all-out and have Bard as like, a Summoner style healer-supporting dps (not the best title lol). There’s already Esuna which they could put on the gcd, it could have a Regen song that has an additional effect if Minne is on the target, they could even give it a Raise, though no Swiftcast would make that difficult, but then they could always bake in a ‘makes next raise song instant cast’ onto a defensive cool-down or something.

Naturally I’m (mostly) throwing balance out the window with these thoughts lol just things I think would be fun.

[Valence]

Bard songs - Press song button, done.
Steps - Has to play steps mini game, has to consider Flourish cool-down, dance partner considerations.
Pretty sure I said in both posts that I’m not really counting raid buffs because firstly they’re not exclusive to the job (in case you noticed everyone that’s not BLM/SAM/MCH has one), and they’re literally defined by being 120-second button presses that could very easily be automated because they require literally 0 input from the player. And even then , which job is the only job in the game that actually interacts with that ability? Oh yeah, Dancer lol. It’s mostly a performative interaction by making you press more than 1 button, but that’s still more than any other job had to think about their raid buff. I guess maybe Ninja too? Do they even still need to hit positionals for Trick Attack to apply?

Just because Dancer is at a 1/10 in terms of active support doesn’t somehow make it ok for Bard to be a 0. Dancer only having to use 1 brain cell isn’t really a justification for Bard to use 0.5 brain cells - they should both feel enjoyable and interesting to play in all aspects of the job.

But let’s go further.

Minne - Press the song button, done (Gee I’m beginning to see a pattern)
Curing Waltz - possible consideration of dance partner and personal positioning, isn’t reliant on party members actually healing within the time frame of the buff. Oh also half the cool-down of Minne despite arguably offering the same healing.

Paean - Press a song button, done. Who’d have thought?! I guess you can say you have to look at the party list to see who has an ailment, but most people don’t even bother doing that anyway (and nobody cares about removable debuffs apparently anyway. Oh yeah, and a 45 second cool-down because fuck Bards I guess?
Improvisation - These are in no way functional equivalents but it’s the only support skill that’s not a rais buff left. Positioning of both self and accounting for party members needs to be considered. You could argue managing stacks too but nobody is going to channel longer than an ogcd outside of downtime anyway so that’s probably a moot point.

If you’re really still going to deny that Bard and Dancer function differently on how they perform their support role, I really don’t know what to say. Just because said role is already paper thin doesn’t mean those differences don’t exist.

Alright, I see your point better. Essentially you say something is "passive" when there is one button press on cooldown, versus something a bit more active when there is 4 button presses on cooldown, if I follow correctly. That's... more involved for sure, but since later you bring up the thought process behind and the considerations, BRD songs do actually have a lot more consideration process behind thier use than using Steps on cd. Songs can be cut, extended, clipped, to adjust to different fight sequences, which steps don't really objectively do much if at all. Moving or altering songs also comes with consequences on gauge generation, apex usage if you get out of the 2min pattern, and repertoires and each benefit they all bring in terms of damage.

You seem to think that I defend the utterly poor state of mechanically brainless execution that all jobs in XIV are left into, but believe me that like you I do wish we had actual agency and choices that matter beyond stupid excel spreadsheet optimization to adjust to oh no, another boss downtime in a 99% scripted encounter anyway.

I never denied that BRD and DNC do work differently at a mechanical baseline level, but that doesn't say much, does it? All of their buffs, whether it's one or the other, could just be macroed, whether one takes 4 lines and the other only 1. This also doesn't still make DNC more support oriented than BRD, it just makes the amount of inputs in button press required higher, but when it comes to the amount of agency and choice? Songs have more than steps, but as you say, waltz and improv have more than minne.

The differences make me speechless really.

Furthermore, by your logic Ninjas, Dragoons, Pictomancers, Summoners, Red Mages, Reapers, Monks, Astrologian, Scholar…are all providing support that is practically identical to what Dancer and Bard can do, because they have an automatic button press every 120s to raise party damage?

Yes. The difference is just in numbers.

Things they could do to make Bard more active?
- 1.5 cast on songs like they were originally, would cause massive backlash because precious APM
- Button press musical notes mini game, but that’s just copy+paste from Dancer. Technically more APM if they’re 1.5s gcds or whatever like steps. Win?!
- MP costs and/or removed/reduced cooldowns.
- Higher potency but single target buffs that actually require any kind of conscious thought, ideally gcd though that’s practically impossible in current design
- Interaction between dps and support, i.e mp costs on songs but certain actions give mp restoration.
- Song exclusivity and rotational choice. I.E ‘do I want to sing Ballad for MP or Requiem for damage or whatever’ (please god someone don’t come at me with the ‘but it’ll always just be the damage song!!!!’, it’s not a literal example)
- Warden’s Paean updated to at least be in line with the actual spell it’s supposed to reflect lol. Esuna is now instant cast, gcd, has no MP cost…yet somehow Bards are only allowed to do it every 45 seconds? Why? Because ‘you’re not a healer’. Neither are Red Mages or Summoners yet they’re allowed to have healing/recovery support coming out of their ass lol

I too wish we could go back to having short recasts on most parts of a job's toolkit, and gate their use instead behind resources, and/or even better, actual choices to use them when it makes sense to use them. Alas, this isn't the direction the devs have chosen because we're playing an action DDR scripted game where everything has to follow a script to a T. And when it doesn't by doing non standard, they'll make damn sure you do anyway.

I too wish we had MP being relevant again.

I too wish we had songs being played for specific goals in mind.

[Connor]

Alright, I see your point better. Essentially you say something is "passive" when there is one button press on cooldown, versus something a bit more active when there is 4 button presses on cooldown, if I follow correctly. That's... more involved for sure, but since later you bring up the thought process behind and the considerations, BRD songs do actually have a lot more consideration process behind thier use than using Steps on cd. Songs can be cut, extended, clipped, to adjust to different fight sequences, which steps don't really objectively do much if at all. Moving or altering songs also comes with consequences on gauge generation, apex usage if you get out of the 2min pattern, and repertoires and each benefit they all bring in terms of damage

Looking at them side by side like that, it’s ironic that both jobs have what the other lacks. Bards have the thought processing behind song usage and management but little/no interaction with them, whereas Dancer has that little bit of interaction but little/no thought process required since Steps need to be used so rotationally/on cd. And even then, as you say it’s not like those differences aren’t paper thin.

You seem to think that I defend the utterly poor state of mechanically brainless execution that all jobs in XIV are left into, but believe me that like you I do wish we had actual agency and choices that matter beyond stupid excel spreadsheet optimization to adjust to oh no, another boss downtime in a 99% scripted encounter anyway.

I don’t mean to ‘accuse’ anyone here despite how my posts sometimes sound. They do tend to come across more ‘belligerently’ than I initially realize, usually I imagine it coming across purely neutral, but then forget that those nuances only make sense to me because I’m the one who wrote it. And it’s definitely coloured by my frustrations with the devs for ignoring so many of us for so long. One way or another, I think everyone here ultimately wants the same thing - for Bard (and the other phys ranged too ofc) to feel both fun, and valuable as it’s own job again. Even if people have different views on how that can/should come about, it’s still the same end goal.

I never denied that BRD and DNC do work differently at a mechanical baseline level, but that doesn\\'t say much, does it? All of their buffs, whether it\\'s one or the other, could just be macroed, whether one takes 4 lines and the other only 1. This also doesn\\'t still make DNC more support oriented than BRD, it just makes the amount of inputs in button press required higher, but when it comes to the amount of agency and choice? Songs have more than steps, but as you say, waltz and improv have more than minne.

The differences make me speechless really.

Yes. The difference is just in numbers.

True, and it’s definitely sad that the differences between jobs have become so paper thin as a result of how similar they’ve all become. Both in terms of ‘support’ and in more general terms. I think the main point I was trying to make with this is that, they’ve simplified everything so much that these tiny little mostly meaningless differences between jobs are the only thing we have left. But, and I may be completely wrong, I do also think the devs look at these tiny things and genuinely think they constitute ‘tangible differences in job gameplay’ and not just the exact same thing with a funny moustache. Though maybe that’s just being overly cynical.

I too wish we could go back to having short recasts on most parts of a job\\'s toolkit, and gate their use instead behind resources, and/or even better, actual choices to use them when it makes sense to use them. Alas, this isn\\'t the direction the devs have chosen because we\\'re playing an action DDR scripted game where everything has to follow a script to a T. And when it doesn\\'t by doing non standard, they\\'ll make damn sure you do anyway.

I too wish we had MP being relevant again.

I too wish we had songs being played for specific goals in mind.

Yeah, I think the saddest thing for me is that there really wasn’t any major resentment against the songs or how they worked in ARR to Stormblood. Not that I remember anyway. Heavensward complaints were all naturally about them superimposing Gauss Barrel onto Bard’s entire skillset, but they weren’t like ‘we don’t want to cast not even when we sing!, I thought the issue was having another job’s mechanics stuck on top of Bards. Likewise in Stormblood, people were naturally complaining about the party synergy debacle. But, I’m pretty sure they were complaining about personal dps output being heavily contingent on party composition I.E needing a Dragoon for ranged/piercing, slashing jobs needing Ninja (or was it Warrior, etc). Not sure what part of that message included ‘we hate that Foe Requiem still exists’ or ‘don’t make us use our MP anymore!’

I think what’s frustrating is that PvP skill sets feel (or maybe I should use past tense given the recent changes lol) more ‘inspired’ than anything we have in PvE. The balancing is way off in so many difference ways, of course, but ultimately I still find the skills much more fun to use. Even taking Bard’s Paean and Nocturne. The Warden’s Paean is/can be extremely valuable when used, and it even has additional effects for removing ailments to incentivise proper usage. Silent Nocturne is usually used to snipe kills on bewildered enemies panicking that Recuperate isn’t working (lol), but it can also be used for things like shutting down battle highs before they can use their high potency skills or on healers to stop them healing/supporting/etc while everyone else ganfs up on the dps.
Even with just those two skills I’d say they feel more fun/interesting to use than any of the things we have in PvE. Though I guess that’s largely to do with content design as well as jobs

[Valence]

I'm pretty sure that to the devs the difference are definitely standing out because the only thing they can see is mechanical execution, because that's what they keep pushing their game toward: an action DDR brainless game where all is about memory, execution, and dancing like frogs in a blender around sometimes obnoxiously obfuscated abstract geometry. The actual RPG part of the battle system has been thrown away ages ago. We're not playing a RPG, we're playing a guitar hero game. Playing a game from the Final Fantasy series you know, I expected to play a RPG but.. something went lost in translation somewhere for sure, since most people that haven't played since before SB don't seem to care at all.

I think people were complaining about many things with caster rphys, and that was essentially making us casters when we could you known have gone and played actual caster jobs that waited nothing more than us picking them up. I actually played a lot of BLM and SMN back then because they were genuinely fun and not yet completely focused on playing a frog in a blender due to encounter and battle design like today. Today, they're just obnoxious to play for me and the irony is that they've become so mobile now (they can even move faster than BRD/MCH by miles).. People were definitely more okay with MCH and cast times but it really does depend whom you ask I feel. Thing is, nobody complains about Iajutsu or Communio because it's not literally constituting the main filler and uptime of those melee jobs. It's fun casting a little something here and there especially as a big finisher. But cast times define casters on their main uptime and filler spells, which also defined heavily BRD and MCH back then as well, and there was a lot of players that played throughout all of ARR as rphys main that suddenly had to play casters in disguise out of nowhere, and I can really understand the backlash and why they removed the system.

We also complained about piercing and slashing debuffs and they removed it in ShB, one of the few good things that expansion brought. Perhaps they could have reworked into something else to be honest (I do have a lot of ideas about damage types ironically, like damage type resistant mobs or trash or whatever that will only take full damage from specific jobs or roles, like for example you'd need a rphys to shoot down ranged targets, or slashing resistant targets, or inflict a specific debuff on a timer to them to break their resistance in order to allow other roles to fully damage them for example, but that's veering off topic).

They removed Foe Requiem for the same reason they remove everything good we have, because it doesn't fit to a game design enforcing macdonaldized scripted plays that should always play the same and Foe Requiem was the only raid buff that allowed actual freedom of skill and party expression, and I do feel they didn't like that it comboed well with mana transferring abilities like manashift, and pushed people to bring the infamous double rphys comp just to manasong the Bard for more Requiem uptime (and in HW, for more Turret promotion uptime as well). They literally hate anything like this. It's the same story with MCH, we asked them to fix the job, to remove or adjust problematic mechanics back then that were mostly located around latency and rapid fire because of their jank netcode, what did they chose to remove? Ammo! Hello?? Nobody asked for ammo to be removed?

PvP skill sets rely on many features that make them interesting:
- They do rely on complex/intricate mechanics building upon each other and interacting with each other well, which tends to reward good play by generating positive feedback loops, most notable example in DT pvp being DNC and Dance of the Dawn.
- They do rely on a multifaceted battle system with many variables, which is the opposite of the monofaceted damage meta system pvp is built around because they shifted 99% of it toward DDR mechanics that are ironically causing more and more accessibility issues those days.
- They do strive to emulate job identity.

[RezRanger]

aDPS and nDPS don't matter in this game. They balance around rDPS which BRD is the best at compared to MCH and DNC at least with FRU. BRD is basically the only Prange to use.

[NightHour]

Bard is the best physical ranged rn tho?!

[mallleable]

BRD being the 'best' phys ranged doesn't mean it's actually a good job.

[RezRanger]

Sure, we can complain about its design, but in regards to getting anything at all during patches whether for balance or not, it's not necessary at least for high end. BRD is solid right now.

[Connor]

Sure, we can complain about its design, but in regards to getting anything at all during patches whether for balance or not, it's not necessary at least for high end. BRD is solid right now.

Couldn’t you apply this logic to healers too though? I mean, pretending WHM doesn’t exist just like the devs , they all do what they need to do properly and efficiently in high ends raids. White Mage and Sage have issues but it’s not like people are locking them out of raids or anything. But are they actually enjoyable to play? I’d say the many times infinity posts the ‘healer strike’ has by now, suggests not lol.

My point is; just because a job has a ‘solid’ raid performance doesn’t mean it should not / cannot get improvements to how it actually plays. Nor is it unreasonable to expect (minor) changes in response to common feedback as part of a main/numbered patch. Like, if it was patch 7.31414 or something then sure, maybe not the time to expect job changes lol. But when a big patch comes around isn’t it natural for people to hope for gameplay improvements? Why should Bard be precluded from that solely because it performs adequately in raids?