Regen healers are breaking the game

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Don't be ignorant. Paladin does high levels of damage whilst being relatively safe. They can push you out of an objective or fight solo and when they LB is up, that damage becomes lethal. As Square Enix said. They have an exceptionally high win rate and it's not because they used cover.

I second this, Paladin has quite impactful, consistent damage now and the more opportunities you give it not having to spend time defending, the more it gets to do a lot of damage.

I unironically think it's beneficial trying to force them to Cover early so you have an opportunity to burst another target with less damage coming from the Paladin.

[Valence]

I have yet to see even good PLD going above average on damage charts. They're NOT doing the damage output they had prior to 7.1 (fortunately). Unlike GNB for example that consistently at high level reaches similar, ludicrous amounts to SMN or MCH.

The reason I mentioned "triggers GCD" isn't because it costs you important damage like in PVE, but rather that you can absolutely miss a key opportunity to heal when you used a damaging GCD prior (Afflatus Misery & Glare IV for example).

That's fair.

[Mekhana]

AST's doublecast shouldn't work for the same spell. Like if you heal you can't use the second double cast for heal also. Sorta like mudras...sorta. They nerfed the Heavy debuff but didn't realize the problem wasn't the duration but the fact you could cast it twice.

[Commander_Justitia]

Players will strife for the optimal meta jobs to make matches easier.
And turns out if you can't have a true healer like in the past, the second best thing is having 2 healers in the same team to generate more healing output like a true fully healer job.
Bad design decision to favor queue times over forcing an upper limit of 1 healer necessary in every team. Getting 3 feels bad.

[IDontPetLalas]

AST's doublecast shouldn't work for the same spell. Like if you heal you can't use the second double cast for heal also. Sorta like mudras...sorta. They nerfed the Heavy debuff but didn't realize the problem wasn't the duration but the fact you could cast it twice.

lol, like now people are really getting ridiculous.

[IDontPetLalas]

Alternative I'm perfectly happy with, just nerf the crap out of their damage output if you want them to heal like that. PLD is doing subpar damage because of all the insane defensive tools it has as a tradeoff, and it keeps the job in check. SCH is doing abyssmally low damage in exchange for how unique and weird the job behaves and influences games. Can you imagine if those jobs were able to casually reach 800k ++ damage at the end of games like AST can?

We'd get very low kill long winded games like we can get at times, but that's also not a huge issue, they do work as well.

Now things are getting a bit nuts, to be frank, when you refer to healers as 'cancer", are repeating calls to nerf healing , then start calling to nerf damage output (due to their healing), and start comparing them to PLD.

Not only would I say that PLDs aren't in a bad place, but I wouldn't compare them directly to healers- although I could see where you might see both healers and tanks ands supports- they fulfill their functions differently.

I don't have any issue with people calling for adjustments- I just want them done conservatively - and exaggerated job descriptions don't typically lead developers to do that.

[Loggos]

I can see where you are coming from, but you do not need MP cost to balance healing - otherwise what was the point of Recuperate as a mechanic? Adjusting the numbers is what really needs to be done here.

Technically, a healer's ability to drop heals on a target is counterbalanced by having an action less about damaging/interrupting the enemy directly and said heal being gated by its cooldown/recharge timer.

I agree with this. I don’t think it’s a good idea to tie healing spells to MP. Unlike PvE, PvP kits’ cohesiveness were designed around CDs and charges in the explicit absence of MP usage for regular skills to manage the frequency of their usage.

I’d rather have the devs keep one consistent design philosophy and balance within that philosophy.

If you start to use MP as an extra resource beyond your four charges of recuperate (which can be manipulated via MP drain) then I think you need to redesign the core of all kits because as Dendriel and Reinhardt said, where do you stop?

What about hybrid skills that are both attack and heal at the same time like Holy Spirit or White Comet? Should they cost MP? And if so should they cost the same because they have the same heal (8k instant)? Because this could lead to further balance issues. Holy Spirit heals very quickly for example, whereas White Comet only heals after 2ish seconds because of the long animations (so you die much more often despite casting it).

Should only healing spells cost MP but not healing abilities (after all in PvE melees have a healing CD as well that costs no MP)?
What about shields which come with many magical and non-magical abilities and what about damage to HP conversion?

Why just tie strong healing to MP? What about big damage? Why should a strong heal demand MP consumption but for example PCT’s 12k ranged AoE bomb on a 16s cooldown can just exist with a CD?

However at that point we have reached the PvE model where casters use MP and melees don’t.
And if we get there then the kits would need to be balanced further because adding MP to current caster kits would place a disproportional disadvantage on them compared to close-range classes.

They would need different MP pools proportional to the MP demands of their kits because otherwise their survivability would be inherently worse in a game mode where they can't avoid damage by not standing in bad spots.

I don’t think casters should be punished with less self-healing in order to be able to act, esp. if their skills aren’t instant and require you to stand still. So you would need to balance MP in a way that every class can still use recuperate roughly the same amount of time while adding more MP on top for caster kits.

But then this leads to the other extreme, where casters could potentially use recuperate a lot more often in cases of emergency instead of using their MP for attacking which would then give them much more survivability than melees.

So then you could disconnect recuperate from MP and give it an extra resource/spender to keep it fair across classes.

But then you are basically where you started because now you have caster and melee kits where some classes can heal and those heals are tied to specific resource management, only that now it’s not just CDs and charges but also MP, so nothing is really gained.

In PvE it makes sense to tie spells to MP and not do the same for melee health regeneration because the proximity to the target, damage reception and healing factor into jobs’ gameplay differently than in PvP, where it’s not about uptime, party-wide coordinated mitigation, very controlled damage distribution (if you don’t stand in the bad) and distinct healing sources (healers) in a rigidly choreographed fight.

I think in its current form CC kits, with their limited number of skills and design simplicity (no spenders etc.), fare better with their current resource management approach.

[Valence]

No things are getting a bit nuts, to be franks, when you refer to healers as 'cancer", are repeating calls to nerf healing , then start calling to nerf damage output (due to their healing), and start comparing them to PLD.

Not only would I say that PLDs aren't in a bad place, but I wouldn't compare them directly to healers- although I could see where you might see both healers and tanks ands supports- they fulfill their functions differently.

I don't have any issue with people calling for adjustments- I just want them done conservatively - and exaggerated job descriptions don't typically lead developers to do that.

Paladins are stellar, especially in the correct hands.

[Loggos]

Here's what I'd change about Astrologian (not all at once, but ideas that could be mixed and matched):

• Aspected Benefic: Reduce the regen from 4000 to 3000 per tick, making it max out at 15000 total healing // 12000 after 1 regen tick at ideal HP use
• Aspected Benefic (Doublecast): Remove the heal scaling based on HP, so it is 6000 heal + 4000 shield // Experimental, but it is still oGCD, keep that in mind
• Lady of Crowns: Reduce the heal from 6000 to 4000 or split it into two regen ticks of 3000. // debatable suggestion given RNG nature
• Epicycle: Remove the shield entirely + reduce the time you have before Retrograde expires from 10s to 3-5s. // Keeps the burst mobility, nerfs the freedom of zipping back and forth
• Macrocosmos: Shorten the time of Microcosmos triggering to 8 seconds (parity with Riddle of Earth) // Keeps the theoretical maximum still high, but a nerf to the opportunity window

Personally I think changes to Aspected Benefic and Epicycle are the best picks here, as those are the painpoint of what makes AST go "from 0 to 100" at "no MP remaining" and then zipping away with Epicycle.

I think those are good suggestions, esp. the one regarding Epicycle because I do like the dash and I think AST needed that but the teleport and shield make it a problem.
(I'd be perfectly happy if they just copied PCT's smudge and let you slide away with some seconds of movement speed if that's not too unbalanced. No teleport, no shield.)

Another additional tweak (wouldn't fix the core but could balance out the power some more) could be to just flat-out revert Lady and Lord back to the old Sun (ATK%) and Tree (DEF%) cards.
No heal and no extra attack. It would still be powerful because you'd have a 1/2 chance to draw either a good defense or offense card instead of a 1/3 chance.

[Commander_Justitia]

Why just tie strong healing to MP? What about big damage? Why should a strong heal demand MP consumption but for example PCT’s 12k ranged AoE bomb on a 16s cooldown can just exist with a CD?

However at that point we have reached the PvE model where casters use MP and melees don’t.
And if we get there then the kits would need to be balanced further because adding MP to current caster kits would place a disproportional disadvantage on them compared to close-range classes.

They would need different MP pools proportional to the MP demands of their kits because otherwise their survivability would be inherently worse in a game mode where they can't avoid damage by not standing in bad spots.

I don’t think casters should be punished with less self-healing in order to be able to act, esp. if their skills aren’t instant and require you to stand still. So you would need to balance MP in a way that every class can still use recuperate roughly the same amount of time while adding more MP on top for caster kits.

But then this leads to the other extreme, where casters could potentially use recuperate a lot more often in cases of emergency instead of using their MP for attacking which would then give them much more survivability than melees.

So then you could disconnect recuperate from MP and give it an extra resource/spender to keep it fair across classes.

We had MP and TP. And we actually ran out of TP and needed skills to refresh it. Sprint consumed full TP bar as well, so it was rarely used.
Then we had MP and TP, but sprint became an additional. Most skills got removed, so you didn't really run out of TP that much I guess.
Then we had only MP to manage resources. Ironically some jobs, didn't use MP at all, like warrior, but it was still possible to use the additional Muse, which was regenerating MP.
Now we have MP, but it only manages selfheals.

This game only allows for one direction. Simplification.

You can argue bringing TP back. But I think the devs would rather think about how to remove MP.