They forgot Ranged Physical is a role in the game

[Lyth]

?

For the damage disadvantage that Physical Ranged have relative to Damage Casters, they might as well have access to raise. The difference is that your SMN main brings raise for prog and swaps out for PCT when you're clear ready without any significant re-gearing. If double Magical Ranged is strongly feasible, then double Physical Ranged should be equally feasible. Let people bring whatever pair of ranged jobs that they like.

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding damage parity. I have always argued in favor of it, because I know that a fair and balanced playing field favors skilled players (and that's why you are determinedly resistant to it). Ideally, melee will be tuned slightly higher under pure target dummy conditions, but fight design will make it a toss up between melee and ranged, with a variety of melee and ranged jobs pulling out on top based off of variations in uptime. They really need to stop making wall bosses, it's not even an interesting gimmick. Either way, fights are designed off of a 2/2/2/2 principle. This has nothing to do with melee, and has everything to do with Magical Ranged completely dominating Physical Ranged in their respective category.

[Supersnow845]

For the damage disadvantage that Physical Ranged have relative to Damage Casters, they might as well have access to raise. The difference is that your SMN main brings raise for prog and swaps out for PCT when you're clear ready without any significant re-gearing. If double Magical Ranged is strongly feasible, then double Physical Ranged should be equally feasible. Let people bring whatever pair of ranged jobs that they like.

I have no idea what you're talking about regarding damage parity. I have always argued in favor of it, because I know that a fair and balanced playing field favors skilled players (and that's why you are determinedly resistant to it). Ideally, melee will be tuned slightly higher under pure target dummy conditions, but fight design will make it a toss up between melee and ranged, with a variety of melee and ranged jobs pulling out on top based off of variations in uptime. They really need to stop making wall bosses, it's not even an interesting gimmick. Either way, fights are designed off of a 2/2/2/2 principle. This has nothing to do with melee, and has everything to do with Magical Ranged completely dominating Physical Ranged in their respective category.

“I have always argued in favour of damage parity”

“Ideally melee should be tuned a little higher in dummy conditions”

See this, this right here is just a tiny little microcosm of how internally inconsistent your arguments become when you try to argue both sides of casters unfairly dominating the phys ranged but also somehow believe the melees should stand above by default. This is relevant to physical ranged because you’ve straight up argued in the past that damage parity is to the melee’s detriment but never to the casters. Caster is just as distinctive a role from phys ranged as melee is, you can’t just ignore that as a concept. As a whole people who have concerns around uptime will always oppose parity from those who don’t and casters and melee both share that problem

I don’t oppose parity in damage because I’m unskilled (that backhand was just pointlessly rude) I oppose it because melee and casters have uptime concerns the physical ranged lack. HOWEVER before you quote that sentence and stop right there I don’t like the current design either, like I said my desire to fix the physical ranged involves giving them mechanics only they can do because they play to their advantages. I’ve never had a problem playing a role that does less damage if I feel like I’m uniquely contributing to the party on other fronts (hell it’s the entire foundation that non damage buffers like 11 BRD are built on)

I don’t want everyone shoved down further into grey slop because they refuse to innovate fight design to the physical ranged benefit but if I had to go that route then I’d rather they go back to ShB balancing of 2/2/1/1/1/x where you can bring any fourth member even a second physical ranged because you prefer mechanical consistency over raw damage. The phys ranged don’t do enough damage in the current design that’s a universal problem but nor is it a problem entirely derived from the casters

[Lyth]

???

Tanks and melee jobs are physically unable to get their rotation off if they are forced out of range from the boss. That's a fundamental distinction between melee and ranged. It's also the reason why the 2/2/2/2 format exists. Otherwise players can and will run an all ranged comp.

I'm all in favor of fairness, but I'm not going to let you push the boundaries either. I don't support triple or quadruple ranged comps. That should be genuinely restricted, similar to how they completely prevented LB generation on duplicate jobs in Ultimates to prevent people from running multiple PCTs in the upcoming Ultimate. And before you make the completely ludicrous suggestion of triple/quadruple melee (which no sane player would agree to run), I would support the same restriction on melee jobs.

If you read my post properly, you would have noted that I said 'under target dummy conditions.' Any situation which forces melee downtime is going to skew massively in favor of ranged jobs, and we see that already with PCT. The only difference in what I'm proposing is instead of that ranged job always being PCT, it sometimes be MCH, DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM, or BLM. If you design it well, you will have some higher melee uptime fights that give melee jobs the upper hand, and others which give ranged the upper hand. You'll have some fights that favor burst, and others that favor sustained DPS.

You're fighting a battle on two fronts, and that's just not tenable. Would it really hurt you to let Physical Ranged have a chance to shine in terms of damage without treating them like they belong in a lower tier of ranged jobs? You could then make a better united case overall for Ranged jobs on the whole to have more instances to excel and take the top spot, outside of the PCT dominance that we've seen this expansion.

[Supersnow845]

snip

Casters are physically unable to move for extended periods of time and keep their rotation running that is a fundamental difference between casters and physical ranged. The logic is exactly the same, just like how they have jupiterfied hitboxes and designed every mechanic since junction shiva around the assumption that the melee should never need to move out of melee range they have also provided the casters insta casts. You can’t argue one is fundamentally different from the other because both are restrictions to the design of the ability of the class to maintain uptime. Playing HW BLM on the modern fight design is just as impossible as playing a melee at ranged. They have compensated one with internal mechanics and one with fight design mechanics but the distinction remains, casters are as different from physical ranged as melee are from casters and inherently there is no advantage to bringing a caster in the modern fight design in a “theoretical all goes” DPS design. If all jobs had parity and fight design didn’t change high cast casters would arguably suffer worse than melee because as of right now fight design builds in the assumption of melee but not necessarily casters. An anything goes meta would likely be 2 melee 2 physical ranged or 1 melee 3 physical ranged because the melee aren’t remotely disadvantaged by modern fight design but casters aren’t compensated for in fight design. They instead alter their rotations to fight design

Putting melee a small percentage above then “compensating” the other roles by making it so fight design sometimes favours the ranged role is just a recipe for making everyone angry. Enforcing melee downtime just makes the melees angry (E6 anyone) and allowing for 100% melee uptime basically just encourages the same melee dominance we have now because the playerbase hates fighting for actual uptime. Don’t get me wrong if every mechanic in savage was a junction shiva style actual fight for uptime I’d have no problem with your proposal because then jobs would actually be differentiated by skill, but as we know the playerbase acts like you kicked their puppy when we have 2 GCD’s of downtime even though they are 20+ ahead of every non melee besides PCT. But your problems with PCT raise a question. Arguably PCT already sits in a full uptime fight with the melees, it’s barely ahead in full uptime and most PCT’s you get will be lower (it has the highest IQR of any job in the game), if this is your “goal” so to speak about parity that favours different jobs why do you oppose the location of PCT right now, arguably the easier way to enact your plan is pull all the ranged up to PCT. ( or at least pull the ranged up to PCT minus 1 or 2% putting even its gold parse firmly amongst the melees

And I still don’t know where you are getting this whole “evil caster wants to hold the phys ranged down” my opinion has always been that a job that has no uptime concerns should have a theoretical lower ceiling than a job that does have uptime concerns (notice this is also why I argue for DPS parity amongst tanks and healers not healer dominance) but in exchange said job should have mechanics designed around it that play to its strengths and allow it to contribute meaningfully to the party in its own right (the renald answer). If this involves a superficial change of changing their name to “support DPS” that doesn’t bother me. It’s just like how I’ve always said that I have zero problem with support being taxed (such as putting PCT below BLM and SAM) but the taxes support should also be meaningful (tempra grassa is, star prism isn’t)

[NightHour]

Either way, fights are designed off of a 2/2/2/2 principle. This has nothing to do with melee, and has everything to do with Magical Ranged completely dominating Physical Ranged in their respective category.

What I fail to understand is...


Why are Summoner and Red Mage ~5% ahead of Physical Ranged when they

- Have the best progression tool in the game - Ability to Raise
- Are as mobile as the Physical Ranged
- Also bring similar mitigation abilities to Physical Ranged


Arguably RDM and SMN should be below PRanged simply because they have the ability to raise.

ESPECIALLY RDM as it has the ability to raise without needing to wait on a Swiftcast cooldown.



They also need to stop being scared, admit Pictomancer is overpowered and nerf it.

This is an area where I think WoW trumps XIV big time - They aren't scared to nerf what's overpowered, nor do they power creep everyone else to try hide the fact something's overpowered.


This proves my point -

https://imgur.com/a/RVbChGs

And for anyone who doesn't play WoW - That's a sizeable nerf given Enhancement's whole shtick is building Maelstrom and spending it on their finishers like Stormstrike etc.



A little bit of backlash because the overpowered job gets nerfed is better than power creeping everything else to try hide the overpowered job.

[Carighan]

Are as mobile as the Physical Ranged

Summoner, sure, nearly as mobile. Essentially a non-caster.

Red Mage? The second-least-mobile caster and either the one with the most total time spent casting or second-most? Okaaaay...

[Carighan]

A little bit of backlash because the overpowered job gets nerfed is better than power creeping everything else to try hide the overpowered job.

It's not even a little bit of backlash, everyone expects and wants Pictos to be nerfed, and did so from the get-go. Instead we get continuous sweeping across-the-board buffs which in turn cause all PvE content to be seriously undertuned 1 major patch in already!

[NightHour]

It's not even a little bit of backlash, everyone expects and wants Pictos to be nerfed, and did so from the get-go. Instead we get continuous sweeping across-the-board buffs which in turn cause all PvE content to be seriously undertuned 1 major patch in already!

This perma buffing mentality is why this raid tier is so easy.


The tier was tuned with 7.0 numbers in mind.



It feels like Square doesn't wanna piss off the Picto players but is happy pissing off players of the other jobs.