Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

[Supersnow845]

If a job has 36 skills then its skills should be designed like SCH (ignoring its boring as sin rotation). Not like VPR or SAM

Having 30+ skills that are all a fixed rotation+damage oGCD’s is part of what’s wrong with modern class design

[Shurrikhan]

People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3. If that then puts due emphasis on how braindead the actual underlying game is, all the better; then we'll have the leverage to actually make a difference where it matters, which isn't just by needlessly playing fall-away-platforms with our filler action for 2 out of 5 roles."

<< "If you so hate complexity in hitting 3 different buttons just to continue the same action, why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...???

I mean, if you... really feel like that a job must be stuffed with 40 clockwork-like skills, no matter how nonsensical and 'dial a combo' mechanics for the game to not enter mobile territory then something is fundamentally wrong.

I don't much plan to consolidate anything, especially if we just get some basic agency increases to make combos less purely bloat/waste --I just think people should be allowed to do as they please in that regard-- but I have to agree with this.

If a job has 36 skills then its skills should be designed like SCH (ignoring its boring as sin rotation). Not like VPR or SAM

Having 30+ skills that are all a fixed rotation+damage oGCD’s is part of what’s wrong with modern class design

Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

[Supersnow845]

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3."

<< "Well why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...




Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

That’s implying that a “DPS SCH” would have all its disconnected skills just be damage. There is a lot of design you could play around with for a DPS SCH if things weren’t so rigid on the combat side. Utility, augmentation of different paths that last indefinitely till you swap them opposing powerful skills that put each other on CD and have distinctive niches. Alternating between buff heavy and selfish based on party composition

Basically a job that has a lot of options and tunes those options to the fight itself sorta like how SCH plays its opposing CD’s based on what it needs at the time rather than the current DPS design of trying to fit an ultra rigid rotation into the fight with minimal deviance

[Shurrikhan]

That’s implying that a “DPS SCH” would have all its disconnected skills just be damage. There is a lot of design you could play around with for a DPS SCH if things weren’t so rigid on the combat side. Utility, augmentation of different paths that last indefinitely till you swap them opposing powerful skills that put each other on CD and have distinctive niches. Alternating between buff heavy and selfish based on party composition

Basically a job that has a lot of options and tunes those options to the fight itself sorta like how SCH plays its opposing CD’s based on what it needs at the time rather than the current DPS design of trying to fit an ultra rigid rotation into the fight with minimal deviance

I mean, if you could sample something like that, I'd probably be all for it. It's worked, more or less, for a few DPS specs in WoW, for instance (and no, I'm not talking about Aug).

The issue, though, is that I suspect that has more to do with the combat content themselves. Were their fights' profiles were as unvaried as XIV's, they would likewise fall into a perfectly strict obvious(ly) optimal rotation.

XIV combat is simple first and foremost because that's all its combat content incentivizes (and thereby [or, and ultimately] allows for).

• We don't have interesting disengagement tools because we scarcely have any disengagement. We don't have any suppression tools because there's nothing to interestingly suppress nor desire to allow that.
• We don't have interesting support tools because there's no use cases for them that wouldn't just be subsumed into rotational or obligatory events of damage increase.
• We don't have meaningful DPS-CD holding in part, yes, because some would then be worse hit than others (especially in PuGs) for needing to hold CDs but mostly because there are scarcely any DPS checks worth holding CDs for.
• And, similarly, we don't have anything but scheduled tank and healer CDs since there's nothing that would incentivize their use earlier while still allowing later at-cost recovery, at least outside of obviously bad play.

[GoatOfWar]

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3. If that then puts due emphasis on how braindead the actual underlying game is, all the better; then we'll have the leverage to actually make a difference where it matters, which isn't just by needlessly playing fall-away-platforms with our filler action for 2 out of 5 roles."

<< "If you so hate complexity in hitting 3 different buttons just to continue the same action, why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...???



I don't much plan to consolidate anything, especially if we just get some basic agency increases to make combos less purely bloat/waste --I just think people should be allowed to do as they please in that regard-- but I have to agree with this.




Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

Why are you pretending that this is only about the 123 button consolidation?
It's about the bizarre desire to simplify things *even further*.

[Shurrikhan]

Why are you pretending that this is only about the 123 button consolidation?
It's about the bizarre desire to simplify things *even further*.

It's very literally about combo consolidation:

So, came back to FF14 recently, now 7.1 happened and there’s still no option to put 123 combos most jobs are plagued with on one button. I know that this somehow is and seemingly forever has to be a very sad topic in this game that’s being discussed dating back years and years if you google it and I don’t even know why. It already exists in the game officially and only needs to be copy-pasted over from the PvP spell book.

RDM is probably the biggest offender here. A situational melee 123 on a caster, that takes 3 semi-good keys (because you still use it regularly and possibly during movement). You will never use it outside of specific conditions, you will never use only step 1, you will never start with step 2, you will never use 1-2-1, it makes no sense that it’s 3 different skills.

I know that when you’re on PC you can kinda help yourself but that just feels wrong.

Make it an OPTION, put it in the accessibility options if you absolutely have to so a tiny minority can continue to pretend that this game is esports and the possibility of fumbling inputs due to overbloated and suboptimal bindings should be a major part of the PvE experience.

Thank you SE.

Even if we were to assume that the OP did not mean what they clearly said, intended to expand beyond the bounds mentioned, or were otherwise conspiratorially trying to simplify the game despite their many complaints about it being too simple (and masking this through button-bloat)...

...we'd be left with, at most, the option to make other mutually exclusive and/or "unlocked" actions share a key. ...Oh no?

[GoatOfWar]

It's very literally about combo consolidation:
Even if we were to assume that the OP did not mean what they clearly said, intended to expand beyond the bounds mentioned, or were otherwise conspiratorially trying to simplify the game despite their many complaints about it being too simple (and masking this through button-bloat)...

...we'd be left with, at most, the option to make other mutually exclusive and/or "unlocked" actions share a key. ...Oh no?

Am i really going to have to explain why i don't understand why people ask for further simplification when the game is already oversimplistic?
Do you really want me to go over why the game is already overly simplistic, and asking for further simplification is fucking weird to me?
Just fuck off at this point. I don't want to talk to you. I never made it *just* about the 123.

[Shurrikhan]

Am i really going to have to explain why i don't understand why people ask for further simplification when the game is already oversimplistic?

What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).

I never made it *just* about the 123.

Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).

[GoatOfWar]

What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).



Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).

It's the constant push for further simplification in general.
People ''just'' wanted burst windows simplified.
People ''just'' wanted gapcloser potency removed.
People ''just'' wanted animation locks removed.
People ''Just'' wanted busy weave windows removed.
People ''just'' wanted slightly less button bloat.
People still want positionals removed.
People still want their GCD's consolidated onto a single button.

If you question or criticise any of these suggestions, people immediately think of the one suggestion in a vaccuum and it's annoying. Because you can never put the simplification process to question.
At a certain point you just got to ask; when will people be happy? Because idk about you but i find myself having less and less fun with 14 the more they remove abilities and simplify the game.
Look at how the healers ended up. I can not stomach playing them because i don't want to press 1 button over and over. Is that the extent that people want to take things? Because it genuinely seems that way.

[BigCheez]

What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).



Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).

The problem is that the game is dying a death by a thousand cuts. When you take any one of the "streamlining" changes that were implemented since Shb and look at it in a vacuum, it looks fine, but when you look at the big picture - the game is just boring as hell now because so many features and points of friction have been stripped away and eroded over time.

We're at the point where the game absolutely cannot afford to be further simplified. It needs a lot of the old complexity brought back.