Dark Knight Changes - Suggestion.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Please explain how Dark Mind getting the Addle treatment would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how a regen on Oblation would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Dark Missionary being usable in UCOB and UWU would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Raw Intuition makes you irrelevant in dungeons when half of the warriors you come across don't even know they have this ability, much less how to use it.

Can you try to make a point that doesn't involve "bad players" as a counter argument? Literally every argument can be nullified using "but bad players" because bad players are agnostic to designing power level, they are a complete anomaly and should not be considered for it.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously, at least go with semi-competent players if not experienced, because stuff like Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting paired with the other tools WAR has literally invalidates the need for healers if the skill level of 1 WAR + 3 DPS ranges anywhere from semi-competent to experienced.

I agree with you that stuff like Dark Mind/Missionary getting improvements would be fine or giving Oblation a little bit extra "anything" (doesn't have to be a regen), but that is most likely not what Valence was arguing for here.

The way I understood it is that Valence does not want another tank to be as absurdly tanky and high in sustain like Warrior (and Paladin), which is (are) the clear outlier here. I.e. not something to the power level of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, at least not without something to use that excess HP for.

So quite frankly, you are overreacting to him.

[AnjouMaaka]

Can you try to make a point that doesn't involve "bad players" as a counter argument? Literally every argument can be nullified using "but bad players" because bad players are agnostic to designing power level, they are a complete anomaly and should not be considered for it.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously, at least go with semi-competent players if not experienced, because stuff like Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting paired with the other tools WAR has literally invalidates the need for healers if the skill level of 1 WAR + 3 DPS ranges anywhere from semi-competent to experienced.

I agree with you that stuff like Dark Mind/Missionary getting improvements would be fine or giving Oblation a little bit extra "anything" (doesn't have to be a regen), but that is most likely not what Valence was arguing for here.

The way I understood it is that Valence does not want another tank to be as absurdly tanky and high in sustain like Warrior (and Paladin), which is (are) the clear outlier here. I.e. not something to the power level of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, at least not without something to use that excess HP for.

So quite frankly, you are overreacting to him.

I'm not overreacting. And ignoring the skill level of other players is not an excuse to continue fearmongering about a job just so that the devs ignore a majority that's been pleading for 5+ years to fix certain inadequacies. I could have just as easily used the phrase "less skilled" but the point still stands. They are paranoid because Xenos put out yet another video from the media tour of him doing a dungeon without a healer. Warrior has been able to do that since ARR. That's nothing new, and it certainly doesn't make their role irrelevant. You still need healers, especially for prog. Just cause TOP was cleared without a healer doesn't mean your average joe is gonna be able to do that.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I'm not overreacting. And ignoring the skill level of other players is not an excuse to continue fearmongering about a job just so that the devs ignore a majority that's been pleading for 5+ years to fix certain inadequacies. I could have just as easily used the phrase "less skilled" but the point still stands. They are paranoid because Xenos put out yet another video from the media tour of him doing a dungeon without a healer. Warrior has been able to do that since ARR. That's nothing new, and it certainly doesn't make their role irrelevant. You still need healers, especially for prog. Just cause TOP was cleared without a healer doesn't mean your average joe is gonna be able to do that.

Highlighted the critical points of your response.

1.) If you do not establish a minimum baseline of skill requirement before considering balance adjustments, then any skill is not strong enough because players that aren't skilled enough will not press them. You literally "have to" cut out bad / weak / lesser skilled /whatever-you-want-to-call-it players out of the equation for balancing jobs and actions because it is semi-competent to experienced players that will break your game - and in that area, experienced healers are being bored to death as strats become solved and content becomes routine.

It is no longer fearmongering at this point and just genuine concern - Warrior is literally too strong because the healing of Bloodwhetting/Raw Intuition is per-target rather than per-action like it should be (see PLD's Holy Circle, Confiteor and Blade combo). For dungeon content, there is absolutely nothing balanced about having a Hallowed Ground every 25 seconds for 8-10s (heal timings & amount accounted for) on top of having 1200 + 1000 heal potency on Equilibrium, 15% HP shield + 300p heal + 500p regen on Shake it Off, another 1500p total regen on Damnation (Vengeance II) as well as 20% max HP healing and a +20% recovery boost on Thrill with another +15% on Rampart. And if you do end up having a gap, you can Holmgang for 10 seconds as well. All of this is ignoring the regular mitigation options to boot.

So moving the sustain of any tank up to Warrior - rather than throwing Warrior down to not be broken, which is as fixable as just making Bloodwhetting trigger only once per weaponskill (or making additional targets hit only scale for 100-150p heals) - is a suggestion quite obviously met with ire, by MORE than just tanks because healers are part of this equation.



2.) The Xenos vid is old, but it proves a point. And frankly it isn't limited to high-end raiders to pull this off either. And since you are saying it - just because Warrior has been able to do it since ARR (stormblood WAR would beg to differ) does not mean that this should've been a thing nor should it continue be a thing. It's okay for Warrior and other tanks to be strong, but Warrior literally invalidates the need for a healer in dungeons at Lv56+ (for self heals) and Lv76+ (for party heals).

For reminder, these are things healers are usually known for and you should know that given you have all tanks and healers at Lv100:

- single-target healing, either the tank or spot-healing DPS [Warrior completely negates the need for this]
- AOE healing against raidwide damage, especially when in high frequency [between Nascent Flash & Shake it Off, WAR can handle dungeon AOE as long as the other 3 dps are competent]
- mitigation of incoming damage when available (ST, AOE) [guess what WAR is *really* good at]
- Esuna on important debuffs [underutilized in dungeons]
- doing damage [like everyone else]
- dealing with mistakes made by party members [the first and only thing Healers are truly useful for in dungeons]

Take skill issue out of the equation and healing becomes boring with a WAR around. Plain and simple. Mind you, Warrior's brokenness scales down in savage and ultimate raids (except for Holmgang, but different topic), so this argument is about dungeons.

As for that TOP example you threw in at the end - yes, it is unbelievably difficult to do, requires two Paladins and two Red Mages with a combined 130ish Clemency & Vercure casts and Cover cheesing Magic Number, a WAR to round it out and 3 other dps with AOE healing available and it is obviously significantly easier to do with a standard 224 composition, but the problem here isn't Warrior nor is it Healer irrelevance, it is the fact that this was even possible in the first place, which is a design failure of not putting in frequent enough healing requirements that mandates having dedicated healers. Principle is the issue here.