Dark Knight Changes - Suggestion.

[AnjouMaaka]

I could sit here and put out example after example where even paladin and gunbreaker should have Raw Intuition and example after example where Raw Intuition would have completely saved the run if it was a role ability acquired at level 15 along with the first tank AoE on all tanks. But so many will come out in defense of anti-homogenization in a game that continues to homogenize making them the ones are unwilling to accept the direction Square Enix is taking the game. These people are the loud minority.

The silent majority you speak of will watch and chat with Xenos but not frequent these forums. If they did frequent the forums and put out their opinions on the matter, I would at that time be able to win a bet on a vast majority of them having a major alignment in dark knight needing the most work. But so many who frequent the forums have labeled Xenos a threat to the game and the game's balance and would not so much as be bothered to go look at how many video comments there are on his dark knight rants that agree with him.

I have said countless times that Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability is just what I would do. There would be no need to add anything outside of that to the other tanks. But I have also mentioned multiple times how that would not be healthy for the game moving forward thanks to the anti-homogenization crowd. You think you got me on this but you have only done the opposite.

Thinking dark knight is balanced is wishful thinking. Dungeons are designed to be a pushover. That is the primary factor in this, and that is why dark knight is the one that is not balanced.

Again, these are the common suggestions:
- Addle treatment for Dark Mind
- Dark Missionary unlocked at same level as Heart of Light
- Regen for Oblation
- Abyssal Drain untied from Carve and Spit

Unhealthy for the game:
- Dark knight defensives continuing to be ignored
- Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability

Thinking mere existence is proof of design intent is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it. You gotta look at more than just the jobs. Look at the content and what the design intent for that is supposed to be. By process of elimination, dark knight becomes the odd one out, the ugly duck, the black sheep. Even the healer main turned picto main is able to admit that dark knight is not the balanced design by saying he thinks the balance is somewhere between paladin and gunbreaker, and like I said, if that's the case, then dark knight still falls excessively short of that mark.

[Shurrikhan]

Thinking dark knight is balanced is wishful thinking. Dungeons are designed to be a pushover.

Again, no one said Dark Knight's defensive power is balanced against that of other tanks, let alone in dungeons.

There is a difference between in-role balance and between-role balance.

Thinking mere existence is proof of design intent is a very narrow-minded way of looking at it.

It was your take:

Because warrior is the strongest tank defensively, and if that is considered balanced by the devs, then there is no valid reason for dark knight to continue lacking self sustain at all levels of play.

Unhealthy for the game:
- Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability

Also from your post, by name and by insistence that all should be scaled up to Warrior-even-in-dungeons, given that so much of Warrior's excess strength there comes from the healing-per-enemy-hit of Raw Intuition.

[AnjouMaaka]

Again, no one said Dark Knight's defensive power is balanced against that of other tanks, let alone in dungeons.

There is a difference between in-role balance and between-role balance.


It was your take:

Also from your post, by name and by insistence that all should be scaled up to Warrior-even-in-dungeons, given that so much of Warrior's excess strength there comes from the healing-per-enemy-hit of Raw Intuition.

That if statement and saying "mere existence is proof of design intent" are not the same things. And it's not a take, it's a factually based statement. The things I left out should be automatically assumed to be implied, such as the fact that dungeons are designed to be a pushover, which further emphasizes that warrior is the intended balance, not the other way around. I don't take existence as mere proof of design intent. I have watched as dark knight gets continually ignored. Experience trumps opinion here. The Living Dead change gave us hope in 6.2. Square Enix needs to stop hanging our hope on a cliffhanger.

[Carighan]

...which you preceded to treat as serious so you could critique it and attempt to inform others on something they'd already shown comprehension of pages earlier...

Oh wow, I had not actually considered that. Is Anjou just angry because they do not know the "monkey paw" thing? Did they think I was being serious? :')

(Plus I mean, if you know the history of DRK changes if not as if monkey's paw is a rare take, we needed TBN to improve once all the other tanks got superior short-CDs, and what did we get? Oblation. Sigh.)

[Supersnow845]

Acting like you need all tanks to be at WAR level for dungeons to be a pushover just shows personal bias in skill level not intention of the job designers

My bar for dungeons being a pushover on a tank sits somewhere between DRK and GNB so by my standards GNB is somewhere a little too strong and PLD and WAR are just pointlessly excessively powerful

There is no objectivity to your point by this logic

[Valence]

People constantly trying to push for tanks to be all roles at once are a threat to every other role by definition. Please leave us alone and keep in your lane. Your role is already breaking half the boundaries of the game as it currently stands. DRK is the only remaining tank with a more moderate balance there and allowing a modicum of skill expression in comparison. Beats me why people would get rid of this.

[AnjouMaaka]

Acting like you need all tanks to be at WAR level for dungeons to be a pushover just shows personal bias in skill level not intention of the job designers

My bar for dungeons being a pushover on a tank sits somewhere between DRK and GNB so by my standards GNB is somewhere a little too strong and PLD and WAR are just pointlessly excessively powerful

There is no objectivity to your point by this logic

That is a blatant twisting of my words to arrive at a very misguided conclusion.

People constantly trying to push for tanks to be all roles at once are a threat to every other role by definition. Please leave us alone and keep in your lane. Your role is already breaking half the boundaries of the game as it currently stands. DRK is the only remaining tank with a more moderate balance there and allowing a modicum of skill expression in comparison. Beats me why people would get rid of this.

You both are afraid of something nobody has suggested here and completely overdramatizing and demonizing anything that's a dark knight suggestion out of that fear like a political activist.

Please explain how Dark Mind getting the Addle treatment would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how a regen on Oblation would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Dark Missionary being usable in UCOB and UWU would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Raw Intuition makes you irrelevant in dungeons when half of the warriors you come across don't even know they have this ability, much less how to use it.

[Carighan]

Sorry Anjou, but it's not realistic to balance everything for your level of play. Balance has to assume at least a modicum of player performance, some would suggest only balancing for the top end but there's a valid argument to be made to aim somewhere between that and the average instead, or the lower end of the top end content players in MMOs (usually).

[Supersnow845]

Oh so now we are arguing the angle of “anything can be justified because people are bad enough that they won’t even know what it does”

I hear-by propose that SCH gets given “nuke”, if the SCH presses it the dungeon just ends in victory. This is balanced because and I quote “half the x you come across don’t even know they have this ability, much less how to use it”

Please vote to make me new lead job designer and will make all your dreams come true

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Please explain how Dark Mind getting the Addle treatment would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how a regen on Oblation would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Dark Missionary being usable in UCOB and UWU would strip you of healer relevance when you have plenty of bad players keeping you relevant.
Please explain how Raw Intuition makes you irrelevant in dungeons when half of the warriors you come across don't even know they have this ability, much less how to use it.

Can you try to make a point that doesn't involve "bad players" as a counter argument? Literally every argument can be nullified using "but bad players" because bad players are agnostic to designing power level, they are a complete anomaly and should not be considered for it.

If you want your argument to be taken seriously, at least go with semi-competent players if not experienced, because stuff like Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting paired with the other tools WAR has literally invalidates the need for healers if the skill level of 1 WAR + 3 DPS ranges anywhere from semi-competent to experienced.

I agree with you that stuff like Dark Mind/Missionary getting improvements would be fine or giving Oblation a little bit extra "anything" (doesn't have to be a regen), but that is most likely not what Valence was arguing for here.

The way I understood it is that Valence does not want another tank to be as absurdly tanky and high in sustain like Warrior (and Paladin), which is (are) the clear outlier here. I.e. not something to the power level of Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, at least not without something to use that excess HP for.

So quite frankly, you are overreacting to him.