Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[kajv95]

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

Clarifying Origenics: Sleep is a role action, so every caster has access to it. On top of that, healers have Repose as a role action, so all healers also have a sleep spell. it's a cute touch, just not really helping the job identity thing.

[DiaDeem]

Clarifying Origenics: Sleep is a role action, so every caster has access to it.

Oh, yeah. That said, the stomp is frequent enough that only RDM (Dualcast) and AST (Lightspeed) get to apply the Sleep way more consistently than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... I'm right, but you're also right. The turtle example is just of a handful (listed above) that can all be ignored or that don't really go deep enough with what you could do with content variety. The turtle here being an example of something that doesn't go deep enough. If the stomp was unavoidable and left some kind of debuff that carried over into the Final Boss, and the cast was a bit faster, you'd definitely have to always have a Sleep ready to avoid that.

Or dunno, am I entirely lost with this?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your honest response, really! And yeah, the little convo over on the other thread did give me the final push to make this thread.

And gonna be frank: Yes, your examples do paint a very clear picture, so I do understand where you're coming from.

On the same breath though, do you understand where I'm coming from when I say I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic? Same thing with my Mudras when compared to the Monk Chakras, which clearly are different enough to have some people here have the entire opposite opinion around NIN/MNK that I have.

I guess I wanna follow up with this question: Do you think all jobs suffer the same from the issue you described above? Or do you think some would be fine for you with just a handful of tweaks or more content that was tailor made to use their kits? Or do you really think all of them are a lost cause?

And no, I don't think you're delusional. Turning my BS snark all the way off for this thread.

[kajv95]

Oh, yeah. That said, the stomp is frequent enough that only RDM (Dualcast) and AST (Lightspeed) get to apply the Sleep way more consistently than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... I'm right, but you're also right. The turtle example is just of a handful (listed above) that can all be ignored or that don't really go deep enough with what you could do with content variety. The turtle here being an example of something that doesn't go deep enough. If the stomp was unavoidable and left some kind of debuff that carried over into the Final Boss, and the cast was a bit faster, you'd definitely have to always have a Sleep ready to avoid that.

Or dunno, am I entirely lost with this?

Spot-on, actually. Although any job can easily just cast more sleeps since red mage is sacrificing just as much as the other jobs would because it's GCD. Anyway...
The reason the content can't "be interesting" in this sense is because you cannot guarantee a tool is in the party unless everyone in a guaranteed role has it. For dungeons, this means you can really only center mechanics around tanking, healing and the fact there are two red roles. The nature of the modern MMO beast.

Now, job design and encounter design obviously influence one another - since you can't design for jobs that don't exist. And since every job right now is a 120s burst job with slight variations in the middle, you cannot have any jobs be better or worse than any other in any encounter. I think that was actually the goal - to make sure everyone is on equal grounds of sorts (which still isn't the case anyway) but ultimately it means that encounter design is locked into a very narrow corridor since cc basically doesn't work and can't be designed around and the damage of a group is so reliant on the burst window now that desyncing it might just cause a miss of the dps check.

So everyone is forced to play the same way for "balance", battles are forced to be designed very similarly as a result, and it all contributes to a feeling of same old, same old.

Adding onto this (edit, sorry): the job you play is effectively a lens for the content you play, so if the jobs aren't fulfilling, then no matter how thrilling an encounter might be, you're still going to feel rotten about it upon entering for reclears since the novelty of the new encounter wears off. Conversely, if the jobs are fulfilling, then even mediocre battles can be rather enjoyable because, well, you're having fun just pressing the buttons.

Also, while I'm editing this post, I respect you a lot for actually trying to figure out why people are feeling this way and having actual conversations about it. Cheers <3

[NegativeS]

On the same breath though, do you understand where I'm coming from when I say I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic? Same thing with my Mudras when compared to the Monk Chakras, which clearly are different enough to have some people here have the entire opposite opinion around NIN/MNK that I have.

I guess I wanna follow up with this question: Do you think all jobs suffer the same from the issue you described above? Or do you think some would be fine for you with just a handful of tweaks or more content that was tailor made to use their kits? Or do you really think all of them are a lost cause?

And no, I don't think you're delusional. Turning my BS snark all the way off for this thread.

I will say that some roles (not jobs, roles) are better with uniqueness than others. Tank is abysmal in this regard--I don't think I could be convinced that they don't all play the same in their current state. Melee is next--could definitely be worse, but they all have 123 (with variation) combos, a DoT, and a gauge to fill for a capstone. Healers are next--like I said you can't really set a healer's rotation in stone, but there is little-to-no variation of their core kits (other than whether they give regen or a shield). rDPS comes after--unique within their role, and their utility sets them apart, but they all have some overlap with other jobs. Casters are last--they're all pretty unique, and honestly I don't have much of a problem with them.

I may have over-exaggerated a bit in the other thread when I said "kill ALL jobs", but I feel like something like that would need to be done if we are to distance ourselves from the 2-minute-meta downward spiral the devs seem to be caught in.

If they could incorporate the 2MM buffs in a smarter way, then I think DoM DPS would be in a good spot.
If they could give healers more of a varied core kit other than 'single target heal, single target heal with pizzazz, AOE heal, AOE heal with pizzazz', then I think healers would be in... well, a better spot.
If they could take a page out of Bard's book and give the other DoW rDPS something other than 123 combos (NOT SAYING TO COPY BARD), then I think rDPS would be in a good spot.

But melee and tank? Yeah, tear them down, gut them, reshape them in someone else's design philosophy.

Also,

I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic?

Agreed. I love Scholar. Hate Sage. Simple as.

[DiaDeem]

I will say that some roles (not jobs, roles) are better with uniqueness than others. Tank is abysmal in this regard--I don't think I could be convinced that they don't all play the same in their current state. Melee is next--could definitely be worse, but they all have 123 (with variation) combos, a DoT, and a gauge to fill for a capstone. Healers are next--like I said you can't really set a healer's rotation in stone, but there is little-to-no variation of their core kits (other than whether they give regen or a shield). rDPS comes after--unique within their role, and their utility sets them apart, but they all have some overlap with other jobs. Casters are last--they're all pretty unique, and honestly I don't have much of a problem with them.

I really appreciate this paragraph. I don't agree with everything (you can't make me play DRK and I really like GNB's combos) but I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from now, which is what I really wanted with this thread.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply!