7.1 - More Wuk Lamat

[Fatch38]

This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deus Ex Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?

wanna say that WoL/meteor is mary sue ? really ? like the end of ARR didn't happened ? didn't lost our "power" in guardian of the lake ? we saved haurchefrant ? saved papalymo ? minfillia ? wol didn't get his b*tt kicked twice by zenos ? prevented y'shtola to being cut in half ? we can go on like this, you know if we really want to list every time wol failed
you probably don't know what is mary/gary sue then.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Yeah the interview read like,

"It's players who dont understand the greatness of this character we created, we're going to show you more to prove her greatness!"

These quotes from the interview are hilarious:

"She’s a very complex character, and she even has a bit of a complex about herself. ... But again, we’re going to be reflecting that learning into [content patch 7.1] and onward, we’re hoping that we can show more of what makes Wuk Lamat so great, and I’m hoping that we can regain from there."

And people call everyone here with just a modicum of standards the delusional ones.

Not only is Wuk one of the most simplistic characters in all of media, the fact that they are just double-downing on this failure and concluding that flooding us with more Wuk is the solution is asinine to me.

The comment about using feedback for 7.1 also proves that yes, they could have course corrected for Wuk in 7.1 - unlike so many here who have decided that 1-2 hours of story can't be amended in 5 months of time. They said themselves that they absolutely can use feedback for 7.1 - they just took our feedback to mean that we need more Wuk as we are all too dumb to realize how complex and amazing she is.

[Voidmage]

Please, just because you didn't like her or her journey you don't have to make things up. She has a journey, she struggles with self-confidence, you help her overcome that so she can properly take the reins after Gulool Ja Ja, if you felt it was awkwardly written or didn't like it that's fine. This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deus Ex Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?

The difference is though that the WoL is the player character. Yes they are a Mary sue but also the avatar of the player in a jrpg.
Wuk Lamat is the mirror of the WoL and would have been fine in her own game or a side story but here you have a main character that does main character things in a game that already has a main character while pushing the player character aside

Her self confidence has no catalyst to be overcome it just happens as well as her physical growth. It’s just there suddenly.
I don’t disagree that she had some kind of difference between the start of DT and the end but the progress was just not there.

If we call the WoL a Mary sue then we can also do that for Wuk Lamat because both are the same.
I really think she being the mirror of the WoL was even the intention of the writers.

A Mary sue is not necessarily a bad tool for a story but it has to fit and the only reason it works for the WoL is because they are the silent avatar of the player.

[ZephyrMenodora]

The difference is though that the WoL is the player character. Yes they are a Mary sue but also the avatar of the player in a jrpg.
Wuk Lamat is the mirror of the WoL and would have been fine in her own game or a side story but here you have a main character that does main character things in a game that already has a main character while pushing the player character aside

Her self confidence has no catalyst to be overcome it just happens as well as her physical growth. It’s just there suddenly.
I don’t disagree that she had some kind of difference between the start of DT and the end but the progress was just not there.

If we call the WoL a Mary sue then we can also do that for Wuk Lamat because both are the same.
I really think she being the mirror of the WoL was even the intention of the writers.

A Mary sue is not necessarily a bad tool for a story but it has to fit and the only reason it works for the WoL is because they are the silent avatar of the player.

About the WoL - our journey had us grow as a character over 10 years.

Wuk is someone written to have barely left the palace, yet after being a dimwit for 2 patches and having everyone around her solve her problems for her, she can believe in herself and fall through a dimensional rift she randomly finds and outdamage in one attack the work of 8 WoL's over the prior 10 minutes. It's so eyerolling.

[Daralii]

Oh dude, she absolutely is a Mary Sue - almost every scene in DT has Wuk Lamat at the center. Kinda understandeable in the first half, less so in the second. During 7.0 MSQ, the character literally has twice as many words as Sphene, a character who is not introduced until the latter third of the story. The writing constantly pushed other characters in the background so they could make Wuk Lamat talk.

I don't dislike Wuk Lamat as a character, however the way the writers pushed her into the spotlight during the story is very noticeable.

I typically hate TVTropes, but it has a page that almost perfectly describes Wuk Lamat, especially at the end.

The very laws of the universe bend to accommodate her. If there's only one in a million chance she could succeed at something, she'll accomplish it with flying colors. If the logical outcome of the story would end in her failure, a Deus ex Machina will ensure her victory. Nothing is too implausible for her to accomplish, whether it be going from Rags to Royalty, killing an Eldritch Abomination, or bringing about world peace. Even the most disdainful and unmoving characters will be Easily Impressed with her. Is there some great deity of unimaginable power in the setting? Expect her to have them astounded by her abilities. If she is so inclined, she may do all that before sitting down to a breakfast consisting of the original story.

...

Because of this, the character just ends up rather boring to witness. Heroes might be naturally predisposed to winning and some villains might never seem to be taken care of, but Black Hole Sue does away with anything resembling logic to prop up the characters. It stops being a story and just becomes more like a fictionalized resume of improbably fantastic deeds.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...n/BlackHoleSue

[fulminating]

Wuk Lamat is the mirror of the WoL ...

I really think she being the mirror of the WoL was even the intention of the writers.
…

Zenos is the mirror of the player and they killed him off. Really makes you think.

[VerdeLuck]

The WoL is not a Mary Sue, the WoL is a powerful weapon that gets used and abused to political ends, manipulated into doing things they shouldn't, and has to watch as problems outside the scope of punching things go wrong like political failings of countries and leaders. That's much more interesting as a story than anything Wuk Lamat has going on.
The WoL has flaws, that they have basically no power other than just htting stuff hard, and in many cases hitting stuff hard just makes the situation worse.

Wuk Lamat is a character who is fawned over in every possible way, she has brief stints of impostor syndrome that go away conveniently, is good at both combat and leadership, her only flaw is she gets sad sometimes before eating a taco and immediately recovering and her tendency to be too trusting, which never really hurts her and she never really grows out of.
She's a character who is static, doesn't change at all, everything around her changes instead as they tell her how great she is. She's the same from start to end, just entirely misunderstood and once charcters understand her greatness they just fall in line and give her their full support. That's a Mary Sue if I've ever seen one.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

Zenos is the mirror of the player and they killed him off. Really makes you think.

honestly, i'd rather follow zenos around for an entire expansion and teach him the power of friendship and lov - i mean unity.

love wuk but she'd make a better side character.

[ZephyrMenodora]

The WoL is not a Mary Sue, the WoL is a powerful weapon that gets used and abused to political ends, manipulated into doing things they shouldn't, and has to watch as problems outside the scope of punching things go wrong like political failings of countries and leaders. That's much more interesting as a story than anything Wuk Lamat has going on.
The WoL has flaws, that they have basically no power other than just htting stuff hard, and in many cases hitting stuff hard just makes the situation worse.

Wuk Lamat is a character who is fawned over in every possible way, she has brief stints of impostor syndrome taht go away conveniently, is good at both combat and leadership, her only flaw is she gets sad sometimes before eating a taco and immediately recovering and her tendency to be too trusting, which never really hurts her and she never really grows out of.
She's a character who is static, doesn't change at all, everything around her changes instead as they tell her how great she is. She's the same from start to end, just entirely misunderstood and once charcters understand her greatness they just fall in line and give her their full support. That's a Mary Sue if I've ever seen one.

I absolutely find the WoL to be a Mary Sue. It's just an acceptable Mary Sue to me.

The number of combat arts and crafts I can out-master the masters in a short period of time always makes me laugh. How many elders that just simply have no more to teach us as we easily surpass them.

We are often the special snowflake, the catalyst for everything, and way more involved in shaping world politics with our support than we should be. Especially in DT - where I still have no idea how my WoL would even support the claim to the throne by someone like Wuk. But it was clearly our presence that tipped the scales for her.

We are the player character though so I find this to be fine. Especially since some of us have spent 10+ years developing our characters. With all we have done, we are exceptional.

Wuk is also a Mary Sue, but in the most unearned ways possible.

[Daralii]

About the WoL - our journey had us grow as a character over 10 years.

Wuk is someone written to have barely left the palace, yet after being a dimwit for 2 patches and having everyone around her solve her problems for her, she can believe in herself and fall through a dimensional rift she randomly finds and outdamage in one attack the work of 8 WoL's over the prior 10 minutes. It's so eyerolling.

If the healers are willing to stay and keep the actual party alive, everyone else can get up from their computers and Wuk will clear the trial on her own. I think you can go AFK during combat in every duty with Wuk as an NPC and she'll clear it on her own.