Concerns Regarding DPS Balance: Physical Ranged, Red Mage, and Summoner

[Carighan]

Caster Hierachy imo should be BLM > PCT > SMN -> RDM.

Didn't you also say that Red Mages and Summoners should lose their unique aspects? In that case, kick BLM down the road. They got superior mobility nowadays with their teleporting back and forth + constant instant cast barrages. Should cost them some damage, if everyone else loses their unique aspects. Or take BLM's teleports to people and back to the circle away. /shrug

[NightHour]

Didn't you also say that Red Mages and Summoners should lose their unique aspects? In that case, kick BLM down the road. They got superior mobility nowadays with their teleporting back and forth + constant instant cast barrages. Should cost them some damage, if everyone else loses their unique aspects. Or take BLM's teleports to people and back to the circle away. /shrug

I said that hierachy based on IF they keep their current gimmicks.


We could also go as far as yeeting melee gap closers too then.

Melee don't really need them if mechanics are designed with their uptime in mind anyway, right?

[Supersnow845]

I said that hierachy based on IF they keep their current gimmicks.


We could also go as far as yeeting melee gap closers too then.

Melee don't really need them if mechanics are designed with their uptime in mind anyway, right?

I mean arguably yes

If melee want the damage they do their uptime shouldn’t be so damn easy

Delete the huge amount of charges their closers have, make UF melee only and restrict NIN’s downtime capacity for its ninjutsu

Right now melee have all the upsides and none of the downsides

[Lyth]

But where is the 'skill expression' for phys ranged players?

I don't know, to be honest, and it would be remiss of me to say. I'm not offering a 'skill-based' interpretation but rather a 'feasibility-based' one. Everyone, under the right circumstances, should be able to aim for the top spot. That may not always be simultaneously possible. A fight with a lot of forced melee downtime will favor ranged. A fight with a lot of forced targetless downtime will favor burst (and PCT). So you adjust DPS numbers appropriately. Melee should be tuned higher under target dummy conditions, such that ranged pull ahead when there's a lot of challenging melee downtime. Consistent DPS should be tuned higher under target dummy conditions, so that when you have fights with multiple intermissions, burst pull ahead. That way no job is always on top. When you ignore these design considerations, you end up with PCT being a hard lock on all fights.

You've had some discussions already about job design approaches to Physical Ranged (walking casts, ranged positionals, more procs), and there are probably opportunities for fight-based design approaches that involve kiting (T7S Raynauds) or distance-based baits. I encourage you to collectively decide what forms of skill expression you want to see going forward. I'm just reinforcing the fact that Physical Ranged should not be treated as an inferior tier of Ranged DPS compared to 'Damage Casters'.

Everyone is above MCH, and PCT is above everybody. I don't understand the point of that comment?

I'm saying that given PCT's overwhelming burst and the fact that it generates motifs without a target, PCT should be tuned to do less damage than BLM, MCH, RDM, and BRD on a target dummy. That way whenever you have fights with downtime, it will actually be more reasonably balanced. The devs can't be playing favorites like this. Hope that helps.

???

Ah yes. Melee should just stroll back to the boss after disconnects. Is that how you think melee is played, out of curiosity?

[Valence]

What the game needs tbh is to veer radically away from uptime DDR bullshit and go back to a HW friendlier model with more depth to actually build back specific role identities, have varied and unique encounter mechanics challenging each role differently, if I have to be frank as a rphys main. I know it's not going to happen, and that's why AAC is going to be my last raiding tier. But if SE continues in the same direction where only damage and uptime matters, then that's what every DPS subrole is going to fight over, and that's how every DPS subrole will be homogenized to death, and the first death is going to be rphys, period, because either it turns into a ranged caster to lose the tax, or it stays as it is and will continue to be anything but an actual DPS.

I'm saying that given PCT's overwhelming burst and the fact that it generates motifs without a target, PCT should be tuned to do less damage than BLM, MCH, RDM, and BRD on a target dummy. That way whenever you have fights with downtime, it will actually be more reasonably balanced. The devs can't be playing favorites like this. Hope that helps.

Oh, you were actually speaking in nDPS? What an odd metric to use for 8 man fights..
But yes the lesser the downtime penalty, the more taxed should any job be. If anything, if there was a single tax to apply to jobs in XIV, it should be on burst potential. Even in flat dummy fights burst jobs still have an edge since they either 1) end up closer to their burst and will have a higher average at the kill time or 2) end up before their next burst and this is going to average out with flatter dps profiles anyway.

[Carighan]

Melee don't really need them if mechanics are designed with their uptime in mind anyway, right?

That is, sadly, 99,5% or so true. Depending on specific animation lock it can be a damage loss to do the gapcloser instead of just walking in.