Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[AnjouMaaka]

Those two claims don’t contradict, WOW hits for more which justifies a higher sustain level. Is WOW’s sustain still too high……arguable. Is WOW’s sustain better balanced because the tanks take more damage……yes

And the only reason the sustain nerf was bought up was because Anjou doomed about a sustain nerf leading the population of 14 to collapse. Which WOW’s sustain nerf directly refutes

That's a radically extreme take that shows you know nothing. The two games have very different communities. Most players in FFXIV are too easily butt hurt by the smallest things. We already lost 5%-10% of NA over the "Woke Lamat" drama. As if the game isn't already "woke" thanks to the community. You think the same, or worse, wouldn't happen over a Bloodwhetting nerf? You are fooling yourself.

[Supersnow845]

That's a radically extreme take that shows you know nothing. The two games have very different communities. Most players in FFXIV are too easily butt hurt by the smallest things. We already lost 5%-10% of NA over the "Woke Lamat" drama. As if the game isn't already "woke" thanks to the community. You think the same, or worse, wouldn't happen over a Bloodwhetting nerf? You are fooling yourself.

Oh so now we can’t nerf BW because wuk lamat’s voice actor is trans

This is it folks. This is officially the worst argument I’ve ever heard in regards to 14

[AnjouMaaka]

Oh so now we can’t nerf BW because wuk lamat’s voice actor is trans

This is it folks. This is officially the worst argument I’ve ever heard in regards to 14

You twisting my comment to justify yourself is the bad argument. Reread the comment you're quoting until you understand what I said.

[Lyth]

In fairness, if you wanted insight into the playerbase's distaste around watching a WAR player solo a boss in current content while everyone else watches, WL provides an excellent case study of this. I think even the people who managed to find something likeable about her character cringed at that moment.

The biggest risk impact will be on new players, because they're the ones most likely to die and be forced to sit around while a WAR solos fights in casual content over a course of 20 minutes. If SE wants to keep that cohort of players, the answer is pretty obvious. They might as well forget about their 'Hall of the Intermediate' and reworks of old content. You aren't keeping those players.

[AnjouMaaka]

In fairness, if you wanted insight into the playerbase's distaste around watching a WAR player solo a boss in current content while everyone else watches, WL provides an excellent case study of this. I think even the people who managed to find something likeable about her character cringed at that moment.

The biggest risk impact will be on new players, because they're the ones most likely to die and be forced to sit around while a WAR solos fights in casual content over a course of 20 minutes. If SE wants to keep that cohort of players, the answer is pretty obvious. They might as well forget about their 'Hall of the Intermediate' and reworks of old content. You aren't keeping those players.

The good thing is that these Hall of the Novice upgrades are an extra learning tool. There will now be no excuse for not knowing how to do stack/spread mechanics. Looks like it will even teach what a tankbuster is. The big downside is that Hall of the Novice is not mandatory for character progression, and the 30% xp accessory only helps below level 30, so there's no real incentive for players to do it.

[Alice_Rivers]

I wouldn't celebrate the tankbuster thing, tankbuster damage is a joke, if you want people to learn about tankbusters then tankbusters need to be a credible threat.

[Rithy255]

Besides guardian which is problematic for the reasons I explained (it’s basically a second invuln) the bigger problem is pure healing because without a healer your HP should be on a downward slope, you shouldn’t have enough healing to outheal incoming damage as a tank

Know what I actually agree with you on that last part I do think tanks should need some form of healing from healers, I do think in some instances (like warrior even Paladin/Gunbreaker) should lose some sustain, but theirs also a argument to be made that mostly it's actually the mitigation and actual damage that the tanks take. I would actually agree with you if your solution wasn't just to make tanks more boring for people who actually enjoy the role (aka removing most forms of sustain makes the role more boring, Mitigation doesn't feel that interactive esp in casual content).

No Paladins Guardian isn't a invul, do that on savage mechs where you actually need a invul and it will show you that it's not a invul, I'm also fine with the "shield tank" that doesn't do as much damage as gunbreaker to feel a more defensive then GNB, Lets be real though both actually have very similar defensive kits and self healing, Besides the fact that Gunbreaker also has a shorter cooldown on its invul, I do not think Paladin in it's current state is a "op tank" it's actually just good for once.

[Supersnow845]

Know what I actually agree with you on that last part I do think tanks should need some form of healing from healers, I do think in some instances (like warrior even Paladin/Gunbreaker) should lose some sustain, but theirs also a argument to be made that mostly it's actually the mitigation and actual damage that the tanks take. I would actually agree with you if your solution wasn't just to make tanks more boring for people who actually enjoy the role (aka removing most forms of sustain makes the role more boring, Mitigation doesn't feel that interactive esp in casual content).

No Paladins Guardian isn't a invul, do that on savage mechs where you actually need a invul and it will show you that it's not a invul, I'm also fine with the "shield tank" that doesn't do as much damage as gunbreaker to feel a more defensive then GNB, Lets be real though both actually have very similar defensive kits and self healing, Besides the fact that Gunbreaker also has a shorter cooldown on its invul, I do not think Paladin in it's current state is a "op tank" it's actually just good for once.

I’m not sure why mitigation doesn’t feel interactive but self healing does in your mind

My “solution” isn’t just taking sustain away from the tanks and calling it a day. My solution involves the tanks actually being tanks in terms of agro, mitigation control over long periods of time (not just flashing mitigation right before a TB) and boss positioning. Right now tanks are just a fusion of basic melee and off healer. My solution isn’t just to nerf tanks I don’t know how many more times I can say that

And why should sustain not be changed because tanks enjoy it when healers don’t. Why don’t healers get a say in tanks doing their role for them

[Lyth]

It's a bit hard to draw a clear line between what tanks and healers should be capable of doing. At some point people will turn around and ask if healers should have access to single target mitigation tools because it encroaches on the tank experience of mitigating tankbusters.

Interdependence is important. If you want tanks to be completely dependent on healers to survive, then you also have to accept a gameplay environment in which any auto attack on a non-tank results in a oneshot. That's the foundation on which the classical trinity design was based. Otherwise the support power balance just shifts from tanks to healers instead.

The current design substitutes interdependence for redundancy. It's more accessible in some respects, but diminishes the value of support players because there's so much cross-cover.

[Carighan]

I wouldn't celebrate the tankbuster thing, tankbuster damage is a joke, if you want people to learn about tankbusters then tankbusters need to be a credible threat.

Yeah nowadays they usually fall only into two categories:

1. Did you withhold at least 1 of your CDs for this instead of using it to decrease incoming damage? Ideally 2, but 1 works.
2. Have you put Provoke on your hotbar for a quick tankswap or are you a Warrior and can just invuln each instance because your invuln CD is too low?

They've become too formulaic. Every so often we see something semi-clever, like a 15s+ DoT that kills you if you also got the debuff from the second hit, so even if you invuln you die a few seconds later. But with autoattack damage being ignorable already (since bosses rarely have time to AA) and tankbusters being just a "did you withhold CDs"-check, it's just... boring.

If nothing else, I want tankbusters to be unreliable! Any AA has a small chance to be "upgraded" to a simple big hit with a short cast bar, meanwhile there is a PPM-limitation for how frequently this can happen so that if nothing else, the OT can always grab the boss and use their timers (cast selects target at the end, as it just applies a short buff making the next AA be a big hit).