Setting sights on the future of physical ranged DPS

[Valence]

I'm still curious actually. What would caster DPS think about getting positionals on their jobs? Or as you just proposed, a melee with slow casts on their main filler? Are you sure that's what people would like to play with?

[Carighan]

I'm still curious actually. What would caster DPS think about getting positionals on their jobs? Or as you just proposed, a melee with slow casts on their main filler? Are you sure that's what people would like to play with?

Personally, It Depends™️.

Back/Flank positionals would be weird. Yeah we all stack in melee range anyways so it's not a big deal 99% of the time, but it's a bit constructed. A casting tank would automatically be fine with front positionals but they'd also be utterly pointless I suppose. What would be interesting would be if such a caster had a codified system of Near and Far positionals instead. We already have far-type stuff on PvP Bards, and near-type indirectly on how the Red Mage melee combo interrupts your casting, so I guess we have precedent for both, but as a variable concept on a caster with actual cast bars it'd be super funky to explore. I'd love that.

[mallleable]

I'm still curious actually. What would caster DPS think about getting positionals on their jobs? Or as you just proposed, a melee with slow casts on their main filler? Are you sure that's what people would like to play with?

I feel like a melee walking cast could be useful for conveying that the weapon, and attack is a little unwieldy, and has a ton of weight to it, like maybe it could work with DRK or a hypothetical big hammer job.

[Rika007]

My biggest issue with the walking casts for PVE argument on ranged physical is it doesnt take into account one of the most important parts of what makes these jobs fun, the sheer amount of oGCD abilities they have. If you take give Bard and Machinist walking casts, but they are now no longer able to double weave during their burst phases, you essentially just ruined the job entirely. Honestly with how busy dancer has become in its burst window, it would be awful too.

[mallleable]

My biggest issue with the walking casts for PVE argument on ranged physical is it doesnt take into account one of the most important parts of what makes these jobs fun, the sheer amount of oGCD abilities they have. If you take give Bard and Machinist walking casts, but they are now no longer able to double weave during their burst phases, you essentially just ruined the job entirely. Honestly with how busy dancer has become in its burst window, it would be awful too.

Not all GCDs would be or should be walking casts. Not even BLM or PCT, the most casteriest of casters have cast times on all their spells. Like for BRD, GCDs like Refulgent Arrow, Resonant Arrow, Apex, and Blast Arrow, Radiant Encore, and its dots should remain instant while Burst Shot becomes a walking cast. They could cut the cooldown of Barrage in half so it could have more instant GCDs every minute for movement, and weaving space. I think lining up instant GCDs for double weaves is kind of an aiming-adjacent playstyle because it is like threading a needle, and does require some finesse, and should be considered in phys ranged design even with walking casts.

[CKNovel]

Personally, It Depends™️.

Back/Flank positionals would be weird. Yeah we all stack in melee range anyways so it's not a big deal 99% of the time, but it's a bit constructed. A casting tank would automatically be fine with front positionals but they'd also be utterly pointless I suppose. What would be interesting would be if such a caster had a codified system of Near and Far positionals instead. We already have far-type stuff on PvP Bards, and near-type indirectly on how the Red Mage melee combo interrupts your casting, so I guess we have precedent for both, but as a variable concept on a caster with actual cast bars it'd be super funky to explore. I'd love that.

And then you end up on P7, P8 or Valigarmanda and just can't do any of the "Far" positionals.
There's a lot of mechanics that forces the player to stay in near melee range for share purpose, even M4S has phases where you're forced to remain at close range for a long time.

A Near/Far has been a debate in the past and we quickly figured there would be too much conflict with melee DPS, Healer range (just think about Sacred Soil or Asylum) or game mechanics.

[AnimaAnimus]

Thematically, I would just like them to split archer into bard and ranger. Our current bard is barely a bard, so move most of the bardic toolkit into ranger and instead have bard focus on songs. The dots both could be songs the fact they are shots in the first place make 0 sense for a bard, the current partywide buff could be its own song and the buffs they give us could be different songs as well. A lot of our attack could also be done via songs. There is already a precedent for song based attacks in games like ff4. Plus lb3 should be more bardic themed instead of a bunch of arrows. As it stands now I don't think the person who designed bard knows what a bard is. We should be using songs and instruments much more than our bows.

Ranger could have the majority of the current toolkit and maybe add pets that show up for an attack and then disappear. Have a hawk swoop in for a quick attack. Have a bear rise up, swipe and then disappear. Have a dog charge through and bite (You're such a good boy, Interceptor).

[Lorika]

Thematically, I would just like them to split archer into bard and ranger. Our current bard is barely a bard, so move most of the bardic toolkit into ranger and instead have bard focus on songs. The dots both could be songs the fact they are shots in the first place make 0 sense for a bard, the current partywide buff could be its own song and the buffs they give us could be different songs as well. A lot of our attack could also be done via songs. There is already a precedent for song based attacks in games like ff4. Plus lb3 should be more bardic themed instead of a bunch of arrows. As it stands now I don't think the person who designed bard knows what a bard is. We should be using songs and instruments much more than our bows.

Ranger could have the majority of the current toolkit and maybe add pets that show up for an attack and then disappear. Have a hawk swoop in for a quick attack. Have a bear rise up, swipe and then disappear. Have a dog charge through and bite (You're such a good boy, Interceptor).

The actual Bard is a watered down (and by a lot) version of FFXI Bard.
On FFXI you are also starting as an Archer, but when you unlock Bard.... You forget that once upon a time you were a DPS.

[Carighan]

And then you end up on P7, P8 or Valigarmanda and just can't do any of the "Far" positionals.
There's a lot of mechanics that forces the player to stay in near melee range for share purpose, even M4S has phases where you're forced to remain at close range for a long time.

No? Because Valigarmanda has no positionals?

I would also add that I want a temporary "failure state". Because the success is boring if there is no possibility of failure. Meaning that yes, Melee DPS absolutely ought to dominate damage if they can stay 100% in melee range. And Caster DPS absolutely ought to dominate if they can stand still 100% of the time. Only... neither should be possible. Not in a meaningfully reliable way. And that brings the damage down, which is where sub-par movement tools (like Reprise on Red Mage) and ranged attacks on melee ought to come into play, which should not be as trivial as they are now. However, likewise, movement tools should never be optimal to use rotationally, a weird FFXIV-specific side effect of how oGCDs can be woven between GCDs and how that interacts with casted vs instant GCDs.

[CKNovel]

No? Because Valigarmanda has no positionals?

I would also add that I want a temporary "failure state". Because the success is boring if there is no possibility of failure. Meaning that yes, Melee DPS absolutely ought to dominate damage if they can stay 100% in melee range.

It's only in the hypothetical scenario if we had a "far" positionals mechanic to show the potential conflict.
Another example is that you sometimes put tank and ranged together in NE/NW position to share damages because it allows melees to hit positionals. But in that case, either tank wouldn't be able to hit or ranged wouldn't be able to fulfill the "far" requirement.

You can take P9S that forces everyone at max melee range in some mechanics, same goes for P11S, P12S, M2S, M3S... All encounter that have positionals available.
Every "donut" type of mechanic would instantly deny that "far positional".