Concerns Regarding DPS Balance: Physical Ranged, Red Mage, and Summoner

[Lyth]

There's no point trying to stand up for the 'common good' if the people whom you're standing up for are looking for ways to drag you down at every opportunity. It's like offering a hand up to a megalocrab in a bucket only to get pinched for your trouble. I'm sure that there was a lesson about this somewhere in the Dark Knight questline.

...

If you're using DPS as a measure of player skill, you can only make that comparison within the same job. That's not just because different jobs have different weightings on their actions, but also because of Crit/DH variance. As an example, PCT can have under 200 actions over the course of a shorter fight, and many of those singular button presses could easily amount to anywhere between a 100k and 150k damage difference depending on whether they were Crit/DH or not. That's a massive amount of damage variance on a job with a tiny action count. A job's IQR might as well be evaluating coin flips at that point.

Regarding equivalent percentiles, there's no way to determine how your percentile on BLM correlates to your percentile on PCT, because that depends on your time spent playing each job. You might not even know how to play one of the jobs in question.

I do think that BLM needs relative buffs, because it relies on sustained damage rather than burst, and requires higher tuning to stay relevant in shorter, burst heavy fights. I think job difficulty comes out in the wash, because as you become skilled at meeting those difficulty checks through practicing your chosen job, your damage naturally goes up.

[Valence]

There's no point trying to stand up for the 'common good' if the people whom you're standing up for are looking for ways to drag you down at every opportunity. It's like offering a hand up to a megalocrab in a bucket only to get pinched for your trouble. I'm sure that there was a lesson about this somewhere in the Dark Knight questline.

I could be saying the exact same thing about you to put things in perspective. As a melee brain you've been consistently putting down the role. You're trying to pass for a nice and reasonable person when all of what you've been advocating for when it came to rphys was the systematic demolition of all of the role's identity. You'll excuse me if I'm not exactly on board with this, even if it DOES fit the current model of the game and where it has been going in the past expansions. And I don't think that's exactly a shining good example to follow either.

If you do like it, as many people as you seem to have been mostly pleased with the modern direction the game has been taking however, then that's great for you, but you'll find me at every corner fighting against it, because I don't like it. I want rphys to remain rphys and interact with MEANINGFUL rphys things, not a glorified caster dps.

[Lyth]

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To be honest, I don't know what Physical Ranged's identity is, let alone trying to change it. If you're referring to the walking casts concept, I tried it out in PvP and thought that it was a lot of fun, to the point that I could envision its use in PvE with some tweaking. For that matter, I think a 'walking cast' style charged attack could be a great addition to a future melee job, especially if they ever go the Mystic Knight/Divine Knight/Unyielding Blade route in the future. But the way that I left it was 'it's a neat idea, but I have no personal stake in this'.

By the way, I'm up for creative support effects too, especially if they involve movement tools (Expedient's speed buff feels like it should have been a physical ranged effect, but I digress). What it comes down to is that after 10 years of playing this game, I'm up for anything novel that shakes up the gameplay a bit.

What I can say for sure is that I have no idea what additional benefit Physical Ranged currently brings to the table outside of the 1% buff. If there was no LB penalty for duplicate jobs it would much be preferable to have double PCT than a Physical Ranged. Would it be nice if things were fairer and more people felt valued and happy? Sure. But if you can't offer that same respect to the jobs that I care about, then it's easy enough to leave things as they are. Why make it my problem when it doesn't need to be?

[BabyYoda]

To be honest, I don't know what Physical Ranged's identity is, let alone trying to change it. If you're referring to the walking casts concept, I tried it out in PvP and thought that it was a lot of fun, to the point that I could envision its use in PvE with some tweaking. For that matter, I think a 'walking cast' style charged attack could be a great addition to a future melee job, especially if they ever go the Mystic Knight/Divine Knight/Unyielding Blade route in the future. But the way that I left it was 'it's a neat idea, but I have no personal stake in this'.

By the way, I'm up for creative support effects too, especially if they involve movement tools (Expedient's speed buff feels like it should have been a physical ranged effect, but I digress). What it comes down to is that after 10 years of playing this game, I'm up for anything novel that shakes up the gameplay a bit.

What I can say for sure is that I have no idea what additional benefit Physical Ranged currently brings to the table outside of the 1% buff. If there was no LB penalty for duplicate jobs it would much be preferable to have double PCT than a Physical Ranged. Would it be nice if things were fairer and more people felt valued and happy? Sure. But if you can't offer that same respect to the jobs that I care about, then it's easy enough to leave things as they are. Why make it my problem when it doesn't need to be?

Working around job weaknesses what makes jobs fun

BLM, RDM have to deal with hard cast and you as a player you have to manage their weaknesses through the fight

walking casting is a great addition to jobs in PvP working around slow movement is great it gives skill expression and engagement to the job

[Reldhir]

If you're using DPS as a measure of player skill...

Oh I mean im not saying the numbers im referring can be directly translated to job difficulty 1:1 but it does indicate dps consistancy within each job, and a good theory behind that consistancy is ease of play.

While i do agree that jobs may be more crit dependant than others, MCH and especially DNC are both jobs with high base potency on a single skill, so you would imagine wild swings in dps given crit/DH chance but they are easily the narrowest range, even accounting for the lower overall output.

Still... hmm... yeah I suppose you'd have to adjust the ranges for expected crit/dh...but then that gets muddy because that data is across the entire player base with all sorts of varying gear combinations... yeah okay maybe not then xD