[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

[AnotherPerson]

Please do tell me where I am wrong, because the conception of Ashkins is something that I often read plenty and I would love to know more.

You are right that the Endless do not try to hurt us, and I am not saying they are mindless monsters. Just that they are Ghosts and we stepped into their artificial mausoleum/fish tank.

Their souls deserve to be freed and return to the Sea, the entirety of it, much as likely any tragic existence of Ashkins.

Necromancy is not cool, be it made by magic or tech, and I am pretty sure all the concepts I spoke are very solid.

Hildibrand storyline has Ashkins -- in this case they're zombies. We later learn zombies are capable of sentient thought and can respond and even help people in the realm in the later parts of the story, not only bound by who they were in the past.

The Quest - Of Wolves and Gentlemen - pretty much show how Ashkin are capable of thought. Even the NPC goes "Ah.. Truly? Well, that would explain why the myriad skeletons we found were devoid of unlife, as it were. That said, even if they were as disagreeable a lot as you claim, I should thank you to stop killing every last undead you encounter in your travels..." In case there's any misunderstanding, the journal clarifies that he gently chided you in your propensity for violence against the undead. Even better, he was dressed up as a werewolf costume. He was out here trying to be a gentlemen of light and uphold the teachings of Hildibrand (which he only encounters after death) but in this case, he was looking for Hildibrand.

When you talk about "none of them are alive", are you referring to being able to 'live' as in experience life, sorrows, and joys? Or are you referring to the state of death? Because from what I've seen, FFXIV classifies 'being able to live' and 'a state of death' as two separate concepts, where being "alive" can apply to anyone and everyone, not just for people who are 'living'.

[Raven2014]

You forget Otis is also the exception where he had Experiments done in his memory. Other Endless simply die and have their memory uploaded to the Cloud, creating a continued existence in their life.

Otis, along with Sphene, are more or less the rare exceptions because they don't follow the normal procedure to having their memories uploaded after death without any tampering. Otis was still alive when his memory was uploaded (hence he does not have any shared memories of robot Otis), but the same cannot be said for other Endless. Besides, what constitutes as a fake? For the Endless, they are effectively copied over. It's more akin to a clone.

If I kill the human Otis, then I murder a human.

If I kill the mechanical Otis who actually contain the original soul, in extension it can be also a murder of a unique soul/being.

The problem with the S9 Otis is its existence is a proof that it's not a unique entity. So if the S9 Otis can be create without the original soul but with just mere data, if a 2nd copy can be created, why not 3, why not 10, why not 100? So if I delete the S9 data and the system had created 100 copies of him, am I guilty of murdering 100 Otis?

I said this in a similar thread before, the concept of the Endless (digitalize consciousness) is not news, it has been done many times before. And every time, for this concept to hold water they all have to follow one cardinal rule: there is only one existence to a life. It is the absolutely rule that must be follow for the story of a digital being to have the same impact as a real person. In Zegapain, each individual is a unique quantum package. In Ghost of the Shell or Tokyo Necro, even when an individual has multiple "backup" version of themselves, only one can be active as a time when it host the original consciousness.

By having 2 Otis exist as the time time, the writer of the Endless violated the core principal for this concept to work which make everything that follow to be meaningless garbage. No matter how hard they try to insert the moral or emotional triggers into it, it doesn't change the fact that all I did was shut down a program with no unique individuality.

And Clones already have established in-lore reasons for being "alive" through ARR to Endwalker even if they aren't the originals. Even if you don't see the Endless as the same person, they are still "alive" in another sense.

No, this is not cloning. Cloning is a technology we already have in the 20th century. Cloning doesn't copy a person, nor the memory. You have someone with the exact same DNA but that clone will have to grow up, lead a different life, and experience different thing. The fact the Endless is an exact copy of "memory" without the original soul means if anything, it's about as far away from an actual clone would be.

[Supersnow845]

If I kill the human Otis, then I murder a human.

If I kill the mechanical Otis who actually contain the original soul, in extension it can be also a murder of a unique soul/being.

The problem with the S9 Otis is its existence is a proof that it's not a unique entity. So if the S9 Otis can be create without the original soul but with just mere data, if a 2nd copy can be created, why not 3, why not 10, why not 100? So if I delete the S9 data and the system had created 100 copies of him, am I guilty of murdering 100 Otis?

I said this in a similar thread before, the concept of the Endless (digitalize consciousness) is not news, it has been done many times before. And every time, for this concept to hold water they all have to follow one cardinal rule: there is only one existence to a life. It is the absolutely rule that must be follow for the story of a digital being to have the same impact as a real person. In Zegapain, each individual is a unique quantum package. In Ghost of the Shell or Tokyo Necro, even when an individual has multiple "backup" version of themselves, only one can be active as a time when it host the original consciousness.

By having 2 Otis exist as the time time, the writer of the Endless violated the core principal for this concept to work which make everything that follow to be meaningless garbage. No matter how hard they try to insert the moral or emotional triggers into it, it doesn't change the fact that all I did was shut down a program with no unique individuality.




No, this is not cloning. Cloning is a technology we already have in the 20th century. Cloning doesn't copy a person, nor the memory. You have someone with the exact same DNA but that clone will have to grow up, lead a different life, and experience different thing. The fact the Endless is an exact copy of "memory" without the original soul means if anything, it's about as far away from an actual clone would be.

Yes because endless Otis is not the same “being” as original Otis but is still a being worthy of consideration of life because he has sapience

This is what I think people miss about moral discussions about the endless. The endless are not the people whose memories were used to create them, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t beings in their own right, almost all of the endless who speak show an ability to evolve and grow beyond the temporal lock the system spits them out into so they show sapience

By “killing” endless Otis you aren’t killing Otis, you are killing endless Otis who is a different unique entity and there is no suggestion that the system can create two endless of one person at the same time, so you are killing the unique entity “endless Otis” who ISNT Otis

[Raven2014]

The endless are not the people whose memories were used to create them,

Yes, they're program.

but that doesn’t mean they aren’t beings in their own right, almost all of the endless who speak show an ability to evolve and grow beyond the temporal lock the system spits them out into so they show sapience

Self-learning AI is a technology we already have today. And what do you think the purpose of self-learning AI? If evolving is your ONLY requirement to define sapience living, than a lot of programer/scientist should go to jail whenever a sim or server is shut down.

And ... that is if there is any kind of evolving to begin with. Like ... show me an example of what is this "evolve" that you keep bringing up because I went through the MSQ 4 times, and I don't remember seeing any that will fit the word.

By “killing” endless Otis you aren’t killing Otis, you are killing endless Otis who is a different unique entity and there is no suggestion that the system can create two endless of one person at the same time, so you are killing the unique entity “endless Otis” who ISNT Otis

And ... you missed ... or more probably ... avoided the most important bit.

The point wasn't how unique the two Otis are. The point is ... there are two COPIES of one person. Either you are one individual, or you are not. Once you cross that threshold allow the existence of a 2nd copy, the writing fall apart. Like I said, if the system can just create a 2nd copy of Otis without the soul of the original, what about a 3rd, a 4th, or a 100th? Without that addressed, it makes every copies of Otis a meaningless existence.

Like I said, look back at the last 30-40 years of media, this is not a new concept. But the "unique consciousness" has always been the requirement to connect the "living" aspect to "digitalize" being. That's what make when a digitalize person die, the players can feel as if it's a real human. Without that connection/requirement, then it's just a program.

[OMGJesuis66]

-snip-

I would be reluctant to use Hildebrand questlines as my baseline for canon. While it does, yes, have canon information and degrees of worldbuilding, the questlines are meant to be humoristic in nature and most of the appearances are also meant to be non-sensical. If we are to utilize the plenty of interesting worldbuilding that exists in those quests, it requires a very critical eye to discern what is meant to be non-sensical humor or an actual plot point we can utilize. To that statement, I can say that a Zombie in a Werewolf costume, ain't one of those.

In those same questlines, the Zombies seek to devour brains (As a humoristic representation of what a zombie is in the universe since we have no other display of zombies showing they want to eat brains), and all of them are non-sentient and just acting under the instinct of feed on brains until Zombiebrand 'enlightens' them. Again, this is humor, therefore it is problematic to make the assumption that such a thing is the norm.

But utilizing that principle, for Ashkins, we have two separate categories:

1 - Zombies/Skeletons/Gravekeepers. Those are Ashkins's which possess Corporeal Aether (Body), but do not possess Incorporeal Aether (Souls).
2 - Ghosts/Wraiths/Bhoots. Those are Ashkin's which possess Incorporeal Aether (Soul), but do not possess Corporeal Aether (Body).

As we are aware, the composition of a Living Being, so, a Hyur in this case. Lies of the combination of Corporeal Aether, Incorporeal Aether. Lifeforce and Mnemonic Energy.
Each one of those aspects we have seen has been touched and harnessed with foul intent in many narratives over the story.

(1/3)

[OMGJesuis66]

"Ashkin represent beings which, at one time, were full to bursting with vigor, but, for some reason (most commonly death), have that life energy drained of them leaving naught but a shell—a shell that is then reanimated by some outside means, denying the creature's thoroughgoing return, be it either physical or spiritual, to the Lifestream." - Encyclopedia Eorzea vol.01 and 02

"Ashkin are united by the characteristic that they cannot die in the conventional sense of the word. While the precise origins of many beings in this class are shrouded in mystery, naturalists theorize that many ashkin are created when souls are prevented from rejoining the Lifestream, causing them to take on grotesque forms and haunt the material plane in search of peace that never comes." - Encyclopedia Eorzea vol.03

It is stated that the existence of an Ashkin is nothing but pain and torment to its forms. Where the body is reanimated by foul magics or the soul is twisted by magics and absorbs ambient Aether to get a new form. Which is why there is hostility. They were robbed of their future, unable to ever retrieve it, so they turn their anguish upon the living who walk so with all they cannot obtain. So, the actual difference between our Ashkins and the Endless, lies in the method of "manufactory", if we can put it in this way.
Unlike dark magics being utilized to *force* their will upon a body or soul, what happens is that Origenics replicate the process of the Aetherial Sea, separating the Soul to be used as fuel, from its Memory, which is sent towards Living Memory.
As it is stated by the Endless, they cannot be formed until they have enough Aether for such, thus they replicate the process of a Ghost in the sense of composition. Incorporeal Aethar. Mnemonic Energy. Life Force. And this form also runs out as the Aether runs out, Endless repeatedly says they often fade and are reformed based on the algorithm that the Terminals process.

(2/3)

[OMGJesuis66]

The speculation lies based on the entry of those who recently joined Living Memory, memories of those who existed prior and have an attachment to the recently joined, to give them closure and no more sense of loss. If there's one thing that has ALWAYS been denied by this entire system, is to allow people to feel and deal with loss, as also stated in the MSQ. Mnemonic Energy can perhaps, remain storing data from their events once formed before they are brought to the Terminal again due to the lack of supply of Aether and the need for the cycle to repeat itself. It is not sustainable by any means.

But there lies the interesting bit, where this whole conception brings what would be considered an Ashkin in the Material Plane, to a moment of peace. It does not change that by all criteria they wouldn't be equivalent to Ghosts, no. But they are less prone to hostility and instead, they live their undeath as wandering spirits that are limited to this new universe they found. It is also stated plenty that Endless cannot leave Living Memory, the exception lay upon Cahciua and Sphene who found ways to transfer their data to a physical mechanical body, until the gate atop Everkeep was closed and the connection severed. Without knowing loss, without knowing torment, in a perfect paradise, in its technicalities, a Ghost could thrive.

It still lies massively upon the unnatural, and perhaps if their own method of surviving wasn't going to rejoin and kill every single world there was, perhaps there would be conversations about not shutting the terminals down. It was a person. Acting, talking, right in front of you. But it is not real, and by shutting the terminals you allow those energies to be put to rest and rejoin the Aetherial Sea, as intended, before they can participate once more in the cycle of rebirth. It is important to remember that nothing, to the living, has sensation. We cannot eat, we cannot feel the water, the warmth of fire. In a sense, for them in Living Memory, WE are the Ashkins. But the only way they are able to feel and have this 'normal' life is because of the Mnemonic data stored in the Terminals that recreate what they feel and even build their forms based on the happiest moment of their lives. The machine is always running, always adapting to perpetuate a 'paradise' for the dead, in a very unnerving simulacrum of life.

In my morality, the most kind gesture one can make to those is to set them free to rejoin the cycle of rebirth. To live a false life, adapted and twisted to look perfect without any possible flaws or misery, while consuming the souls of those who ARE really alive, is incredibly dark and cruel in all senses. Those who are in peace once the terminals are shut down, fade. Those who aren't, with unfinished business much likely any Ghost, remain behind. Each side-quest in the place brings closure to each individual so they can pass in peace.

They deserve their rest.

[Eyrilona]

At this point, I have actually come to loathe the "discourse" around the status of the Endless, because almost every thread with valid concerns gets bogged down and buried under endless back and forth between on one side people who feel dirty about what the story forced the Warrior of Light to do and more particularly, how it was done, and on the other side denialists who trample over the feelings of the people that were made uncomfortable by bluntly insisting the Endless are just ChatGPT and it was no big deal.

[Eyrilona]

I have said it before, way back on this forum -- you can not in good faith continue to claim there is no ambiguity or moral argument in this matter, in the face of no end of people who clearly interpreted the whole thing differently than you (which automatically implies there must have been room for ambiguity) and when we are having the moral argument even right now, and have been having it and arguing it over and over countless threads here since roughly three days after Dawntrail released and counting!

[ExESGO]

At this point, I have actually come to loathe the "discourse" around the status of the Endless, because almost every thread with valid concerns gets bogged down and buried under endless back and forth between on one side people who feel dirty about what the story forced the Warrior of Light to do and more particularly, how it was done, and on the other side denialists who trample over the feelings of the people that were made uncomfortable by bluntly insisting the Endless are just ChatGPT and it was no big deal.

I'm going to be devil's advocate and say this is clearly what the writers intended to do with the Endless.