[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

[YojimboM]

I have not seen many people discussing the true implications of what Wuk Lamat has done by the end of the MSQ: Wuk Lamat effectively committed a genocide on the Endless (the Alexandrian ruling class), and then installed a puppet proxy king in the form of Gulool Ja (a non-native). They even emphasize this by stating Wuk Lamat will be there to "guide" the literal baby in his role as king. Wuk Lamat killed the leaders of Alexandria and is now in control of it, she conquered them.

Not a SINGLE Alexandrian pushes back against this, for some reason. Their beloved-beyond-all-words queen Sphene, whom has been their ruler for hundreds or thousands of years, and led them in a peaceful and happy existence was overtly killed by Wuk Lamat. The ONLY reaction to this is a small blurb of dialogue about how they "mourned their queen". Not only that, but many of them feared and disliked Zarool Ja, and would be unlikely to support his wishes for succession. This is honestly a disgrace of writing and the only way things end up like this are purely due to the writers making it that way.

Not only all that, but Dawntrail's entire final plot arc is totally antithetical to everything done in Endwalker and even to Final Fantasy IX. The MSQ almost feels intentionally spiteful to anyone who resonated with the messages in those other stories. Endwalker's ultimate plot was set in motion by Hermes who became distressed at the callous mistreatment of "lesser souls" and Creations (whom were living and experienced feelings) by the Ancients, who did not acknowledge their sentience, and his questioning the purpose of life which led to him creating the Meteia and forming nihilistic ideas. FFIX's many themes revolve around life and death, and the sanctity of all forms of life, no matter how they are created or born. By the end of FFIX, Kuja himself comes to terms with being able to make his life what he wants it to be, and Vivi's whole personal arc centers on him coming to terms with being an artificial creation without a soul and understanding that even if he was created he is still a valuable living person that should live life to the fullest. In Dawntrail, we are made to erase the Endless from existence because they are a "facsimile", a claim by Cahciua (who is not a member of the Alexandrian society), while the Endless are clearly sentient people that practice a different way of life and afterlife that's more similar to the Ancients. Cahciua herself should know that, as she lives both inside and outside Living Memory to the extent she managed to form a resistance organization, she is very clearly self-aware, has feelings, desires, needs, etc. The Endless are living things. All of the logic for why it was "okay" to erase the Endless is reductive at best and downright malicious at worst, and is completely derogatory to the lessons on the sanctity of life in Endwalker and in FFIX. And it never needed to be like that, had the writers had any amount of competency.

After finishing the Dawntrail MSQ, I felt gross and disappointed, to be honest. This story made me feel genuinely disgusted in what I was forced to take part in by Wuk Lamat. Wuk Lamat herself is a nearly sociopathic character for a variety of reasons, and her goofy incompetence quickly devolved into causing genuine harm and destruction to an entire civilization and way of life because she, for once, couldn't understand it.

I see no way that this can be repaired aside from introducing some sort of restoration project for Living Memory, which is now a literal PHYSICAL SCAR within the game of what we were made to do. Wuk Lamat needs to be narratively confined to her palace and phased out of the story, while the Scions and WoL deal with setting things right for her with the Alexandrians, and working towards getting them a fairly chosen ruler of actual Alexandrian heritage.

I understand many people will probably not fully agree with everything I've said, but the main thing stands that the writers did an UNFORGIVABLE disservice to the Alexandrian people and their entire arc. They existed to be conquered and be a vehicle for Wuk Lamat's ambitions and "growth"(non-existent). More could be said about how Krile was backseated when this should have absolutely been her expansion too, but there's enough as it is, one thing at a time.

[Striker44]

The Endless are AI's. They are not "clearly sentient people." They are AI's programmed to act like the people they are based on, but as we see in the case of Sphene, even that programming can be "tweaked" to emphasize or de-emphasize things about them. They are the equivalent of ChatGPT's given bodies. EW was about valuing beings that were actually real, living creatures. DT is about letting go and moving forward with our lives.

Also, don't forget that Alexandria itself effectively invaded and conquered part of Tural. It exists on the Source, in Tural, and is part of Tuliyollal's empire (including the Turali people it took away from their own lives by isolating them inside the dome). In the end, Alexandria invaded Tural, fought a war against Tuliyollal and lost, and is now part of Tuliyollal's empire as a result.

It may be time to step away for a bit. When someone reaches the point of shouting about "unforgivable" things in a video game and declaring the writers incompetent because one personally doesn't like the story they wrote, that sounds like a good sign it's a healthy move to detach oneself.

[Supersnow845]

The Endless are AI's. They are not "clearly sentient people." They are AI's programmed to act like the people they are based on, but as we see in the case of Sphene, even that programming can be "tweaked" to emphasize or de-emphasize things about them. They are the equivalent of ChatGPT's given bodies. EW was about valuing beings that were actually real, living creatures. DT is about letting go and moving forward with our lives.

Also, don't forget that Alexandria itself effectively invaded and conquered part of Tural. It exists on the Source, in Tural, and is part of Tuliyollal's empire (including the Turali people it took away from their own lives by isolating them inside the dome). In the end, Alexandria invaded Tural, fought a war against Tuliyollal and lost, and is now part of Tuliyollal's empire as a result.

It may be time to step away for a bit. When someone reaches the point of shouting about "unforgivable" things in a video game and declaring the writers incompetent because one personally doesn't like the story they wrote, that sounds like a good sign it's a healthy move to detach oneself.

The endless are 100% implied to have sapience because an AI program created to eternally preserve a persons memories would be unable to take steps towards ending its own existence. Cauchia is definitive proof the endless have a degree of agency

The endless (via cauchia, Otis, krile’s parents and the proposal NPC) are all fully aware they are endless and understand how their programming works but also have shown to act beyond it, particularly the proposal NPC who states he has been spat out by the system before and never made a move for his finance but chose to do it this time because he is unsure of how long the existence of the endless can last (a common thread amongst the endless in that they understand that their existence isn’t forever), in that scene he breaks out of the implied temporal lock that exists amongst the endless. The NPC that makes the game for you in yesterland and changes his age when he realises that his childhood form doesn’t make him happiest is another example

The endless may not be human but they are 100% sapient, they aren’t the people they were based on, they are different entities that use the memories of the deceased Alexandrians as a foundation

[Raven2014]

The endless are 100% implied to have sapience because an AI program created to eternally preserve a persons memories would be unable to take steps towards ending its own existence. Cauchia is definitive proof the endless have a degree of agency

No it's not. Otherwise you may as well call the current AI tech we have as Sapience. And I'm not talking about generative AI. There are a lot of stream/chat AI that can seemingly give reaction/opinion based on their assigned personality. I can link you a few video if you want.

You're talking about self-preservation code/program which for the most part is a Hollywood invention. Remember that even though most human has strong self-preservation instinct, we're still capably of making sacrifice. Since Cauchia is a big picture person, it's not strange for a program that simulate her to come to the same conclusion. In fact, you argument would make more sense if the program makes a decision that show a divergent from its original template.

Yep, Cahciua calls the Endless a facsimile. A facsimile is an exact copy of the original. It's equivalent to a clone and in this case, the clone is fully sentient.

No it does not, and I'll give you one word: Otis.

The sentient argument only makes sense if all Endless are like the mechanical Otis. Meaning they are a unique existence.

There is a saying: there is only one existence to a life.

And it's heavily implied that mechanical Otis inherit the original soul, than what the hell is the Z6 Otis if not just a fake copy? And if Z6 Otis is a fake copy, than by proxy all the Z6 Endless are as well.

[AnotherPerson]

But okay, let me do a proper post here.

Living Memory, by its standards, is an artificial Aetherial Sea. Denizens inside are not alive, their behavior, dreams, aspirations and sentience comes from their memories of when they were once alive.

The accurate statement that each individual there is, is that the are Ghosts. We are familiar in FFXIV that Ghosts hold memories and wants from when they were alive, and most of them builds rancor towards the living for being capable to do the things they desire to do, but are unable to. Thus, turning into monsters.

An addendum to that, is that on Deadwalk, we are in a portion of Living Memory where the fault of Aether made the place unstable and shatter, the memories in the terminal there turned into their own sorrows and became what? Monsters. In particular, Ghosts.

If by any means you want to argue that what we did in Living Memory was a genocide, you also need to consider all the Ashkins killed by us in the past and consider every Ashkin as an actual living being. From Palace of the Dead, to Sirensong Sea, etc, etc.

The formula to create both Ashkins and the Endless is the same. Incorporeal Aether (Souls), Life Force and Memories. Therefore, no. None of them are alive, none of them are real beyond what their memories made of them, and they are unable to make new ones.

Living Memory passed a beautiful message to understand, respect and carry on the legacy of those who fell before you, while you allow them to rest and finally sleep as the deserve so you can keep moving forward and carry their burdens with you and with respect.

But to resume that to "genocide" is of such dishonesty and a disservice to the place that's stunning af.

You should really re-read the entire lore instead to realize how much errors you have in understanding the concepts you wrote.

We do kill for a living as an adventurer. We do commit murders, but done with a self justification. When there are Ashkins that hurt others, it gives us a reason to remove them. There is a reason why DRK has such a good storyline because it goes into detail about what our actions, even justified, can cause to others. We do things because it's righteous, but even so there's consequences in our actions.

Ashkins like zombies are sentient (see: Manderville storyline with the 4 gentlemen of light). As much as a joke of a storyline it is, the implications of the storyline shows a clearer view of the interactions of other races post-death. However, not all of them were taken careful means to preserve their memory as in the case with the Endless.

The Endless are not actively trying to hurt others, they end up hurting others by their means of creation (needing aether to sustain themselves).

And if you're going to say they can't make new ones, you basically just said Cahciua hasn't made a single new memory after we see her interact with Erenville in LM and outside of LM.

No it's not. Otherwise you may as well call the current AI tech we have as Sapience. And I'm not talking about generative AI. There are a lot of stream/chat AI that can seemingly give reaction/opinion based on their assigned personality. I can link you a few video if you want.

You're talking about self-preservation code/program which for the most part is a Hollywood invention. Remember that even though most human has strong self-preservation instinct, we're still capably of making sacrifice. Since Cauchia is a big picture person, it's not strange for a program that simulate her to come to the same conclusion. In fact, you argument would make more sense if the program makes a decision that show a divergent from its original template.


No it does not, and I'll give you one word: Otis.

The sentient argument only makes sense if all Endless are like the mechanical Otis. Meaning they are a unique existence.

There is a saying: there is only one existence to a life.

And it's heavily implied that mechanical Otis inherit the original soul, than what the hell is the Z6 Otis if not just a fake copy? And if Z6 Otis is a fake copy, than by proxy all the Z6 Endless are as well.

You forget Otis is also the exception where he had Experiments done in his memory. Other Endless simply die and have their memory uploaded to the Cloud, creating a continued existence in their life.

Otis, along with Sphene, are more or less the rare exceptions because they don't follow the normal procedure to having their memories uploaded after death without any tampering. Otis was still alive when his memory was uploaded (hence he does not have any shared memories of robot Otis), but the same cannot be said for other Endless. Besides, what constitutes as a fake? For the Endless, they are effectively copied over. It's more akin to a clone.

And Clones already have established in-lore reasons for being "alive" through ARR to Endwalker even if they aren't the originals. Even if you don't see the Endless as the same person, they are still "alive" in another sense.

[Raven2014]

You forget Otis is also the exception where he had Experiments done in his memory. Other Endless simply die and have their memory uploaded to the Cloud, creating a continued existence in their life.

Otis, along with Sphene, are more or less the rare exceptions because they don't follow the normal procedure to having their memories uploaded after death without any tampering. Otis was still alive when his memory was uploaded (hence he does not have any shared memories of robot Otis), but the same cannot be said for other Endless. Besides, what constitutes as a fake? For the Endless, they are effectively copied over. It's more akin to a clone.

If I kill the human Otis, then I murder a human.

If I kill the mechanical Otis who actually contain the original soul, in extension it can be also a murder of a unique soul/being.

The problem with the S9 Otis is its existence is a proof that it's not a unique entity. So if the S9 Otis can be create without the original soul but with just mere data, if a 2nd copy can be created, why not 3, why not 10, why not 100? So if I delete the S9 data and the system had created 100 copies of him, am I guilty of murdering 100 Otis?

I said this in a similar thread before, the concept of the Endless (digitalize consciousness) is not news, it has been done many times before. And every time, for this concept to hold water they all have to follow one cardinal rule: there is only one existence to a life. It is the absolutely rule that must be follow for the story of a digital being to have the same impact as a real person. In Zegapain, each individual is a unique quantum package. In Ghost of the Shell or Tokyo Necro, even when an individual has multiple "backup" version of themselves, only one can be active as a time when it host the original consciousness.

By having 2 Otis exist as the time time, the writer of the Endless violated the core principal for this concept to work which make everything that follow to be meaningless garbage. No matter how hard they try to insert the moral or emotional triggers into it, it doesn't change the fact that all I did was shut down a program with no unique individuality.

And Clones already have established in-lore reasons for being "alive" through ARR to Endwalker even if they aren't the originals. Even if you don't see the Endless as the same person, they are still "alive" in another sense.

No, this is not cloning. Cloning is a technology we already have in the 20th century. Cloning doesn't copy a person, nor the memory. You have someone with the exact same DNA but that clone will have to grow up, lead a different life, and experience different thing. The fact the Endless is an exact copy of "memory" without the original soul means if anything, it's about as far away from an actual clone would be.

[Kranel_San]

The Endless are AI's. They are not "clearly sentient people." They are AI's programmed to act like the people they are based on, but as we see in the case of Sphene, even that programming can be "tweaked" to emphasize or de-emphasize things about them. They are the equivalent of ChatGPT's given bodies. EW was about valuing beings that were actually real, living creatures. DT is about letting go and moving forward with our lives.

Also, don't forget that Alexandria itself effectively invaded and conquered part of Tural. It exists on the Source, in Tural, and is part of Tuliyollal's empire (including the Turali people it took away from their own lives by isolating them inside the dome). In the end, Alexandria invaded Tural, fought a war against Tuliyollal and lost, and is now part of Tuliyollal's empire as a result.

It may be time to step away for a bit. When someone reaches the point of shouting about "unforgivable" things in a video game and declaring the writers incompetent because one personally doesn't like the story they wrote, that sounds like a good sign it's a healthy move to detach oneself.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think it's better if we drop these philosophical themes and just have a story being action-driven and entertaining without digging deep into the morale & understanding holes.

[Astronema]

Dawntrail is essentially a district 9 sequel. The denizens of s9 are prawns and the souls the cat food they love.

[AnotherPerson]

The endless are 100% implied to have sapience because an AI program created to eternally preserve a persons memories would be unable to take steps towards ending its own existence. Cauchia is definitive proof the endless have a degree of agency

The endless (via cauchia, Otis, krile’s parents and the proposal NPC) are all fully aware they are endless and understand how their programming works but also have shown to act beyond it, particularly the proposal NPC who states he has been spat out by the system before and never made a move for his finance but chose to do it this time because he is unsure of how long the existence of the endless can last (a common thread amongst the endless in that they understand that their existence isn’t forever), in that scene he breaks out of the implied temporal lock that exists amongst the endless. The NPC that makes the game for you in yesterland and changes his age when he realises that his childhood form doesn’t make him happiest is another example

The endless may not be human but they are 100% sapient, they aren’t the people they were based on, they are different entities that use the memories of the deceased Alexandrians as a foundation

Yep, Cahciua calls the Endless a facsimile. A facsimile is an exact copy of the original. It's equivalent to a clone and in this case, the clone is fully sentient. The only difference is how they store the memories. You can just think of the terminals as a specialized version of the Soul Vessel the scions used at that point.

Sphene herself is sentient but probably the only exception to the Endless being different since she was created by Preservation to keep the Endless going no matter what cost (so she's the only one where her existence has been tampered with after transferring the memories over, hence her ego telling us to stop her when she makes a choice she doesn't have control over in the flashback before Trial 3). Everyone else though, they're real people and treated as such. Even Constancy mentions how they have taken great effort to maintain the integrity of the memories, so it will feel no different from when they were flesh and blood.