After Dawntrails abject Failure of a Story, there need to be serious Consequences

[Eyrilona]

No, every FFXIV player I played with in game actively tells people to avoid steam at all costs. So it isn't a good way to see the number of playerbases at all. Unless you can only play FFXIV through steam, then yeah. But there are other ways to do it. So it doesn't really count.

Kazemon, so many posts in what you are doing is not debating in good faith, it is just contrarianism, which even as I enjoy a sporting exchange of opinions is just tedious.

[Kazemon15]

Kazemon, so many posts in what you are doing is not debating in good faith, it is just contrarianism, which even as I enjoy a sporting exchange of opinions is just tedious.

How am I not debating in "good faith", and when have I ever contracted myself? Most of the people here want to cling to one bad thing and roll with it as a way to get the dev team "fired" when without them, we wouldn't have gotten this far in the first place, how is that "good faith"? Is it good "faith" to ignore previous numbers, reviews and/or praise because one thing you don't like comes about? Everyone says their posts are constructive criticism, yet call for the fire of Yoshi P and the entire dev team. Do you really expect me to see this posts in "good faith", yet mine is not when I disagree? All of your posts are the ones who are tedious.

[Eyrilona]

How am I not debating in "good faith", and when have I ever contracted myself? Most of the people here want to cling to one bad thing and roll with it as a way to get the dev team "fired" when without them, we wouldn't have gotten this far in the first place, how is that "good faith"? Is it good "faith" to ignore previous numbers, reviews and/or praise because one thing you don't like comes about? Everyone says their posts are constructive criticism, yet call for the fire of Yoshi P and the entire dev team. Do you really expect me to see this posts in "good faith", yet mine is not when I disagree? All of your posts are the ones who are tedious.

It is not your position, it is your style of argument. I absolutely do not want to see Yoshi P go either, because I see so many more downsides to that than upsides, but just that I do not agree with the OP article does not mean I am going to defend the use of bad arguments against OP. Over the course of this thread, you dismiss instead of dismantle, issue denials instead of counterpoints, and such.

[Kazemon15]

It is not your position, it is your style of argument. I absolutely do not want to see Yoshi P go either, because I see so many more downsides to that than upsides, but just that I do not agree with the OP article does not mean I am going to defend the use of bad arguments against OP.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "style of argument". And what "bad arguments"? If you mean debunking the steam "myth", then show me the true numbers of the non-steam members. If you give me that, then I will accept that argument. Or is it the fact that other MMOs have shut down due to lower playerbase or mixed reviews? But we have WoW to contradict that, which is a fact and not a speculation. I fail to see what I have said that was "bad" or "wrong". The story is bad? That is subjective. An opinion. A difference of taste. So again, please tell me.

[Eyrilona]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "style of argument". And what "bad arguments"? If you mean debunking the steam "myth", then show me the true numbers of the non-steam members. If you give me that, then I will accept that argument. Or is it the fact that other MMOs have shut down due to lower playerbase or mixed reviews? But we have WoW to contradict that, which is a fact and not a speculation. I fail to see what I have said that was "bad" or "wrong". The story is bad? That is subjective. An opinion. A difference of taste. So again, please tell me.

Firstly, valid sample size statistics are not myth. And I'll note that calling them that would be one example of a bad argument, since you asked me to point one out. Next, putting the burden of evidence on me to provide numbers over the totality of a population because you refuse statistical approximation is another antipattern, and therefore a bad faith argument. It would instead be far more reasonable for PassinLay to ask you to provide statistics in support of your position of at least equal sample size and validity to the ones they used to support the opposite position.

And for a third -- WoW literally DID get bought out by Microsoft and fired and replaced so much of its staff including development leads, the writing lead, and the very CEO of the company. WoW only started its present recovery after doing everything and more that the OP article is calling for, so using WoW's revival as somehow proof that those are things you don't need to do, is logically invalid -- which makes your insistence on using it anyway, another bad argument.

[Kazemon15]

Firstly, valid sample size statistics are not myth. And I'll note that calling them that would be one example of a bad argument, since you asked me to point one out. Next, putting the burden of evidence on me to provide numbers over the totality of a population because you refuse statistical approximation is another antipattern, and therefore a bad faith argument. It would instead be far more reasonable for PassinLay to ask you to provide statistics in support of your position of at least equal sample size and validity to the ones they used to support the opposite position.

And for a third -- WoW literally DID get bought out by Microsoft and fired and replaced so much of its staff including development leads, the writing lead, and the very CEO of the company. WoW only started its present recovery after doing everything and more that the OP article is calling for, so using WoW's revival as somehow proof that those are things you don't need to do, is logically invalid -- which makes your insistence on using it anyway, another bad argument.

Again, Steam is an extremely small portion of the playerbase. And I know, it is actually impossible to see the entire playerbase because only SE can see those numbers. We only have Yoshi P's statement that the game is still doing well. That is the closest we have. You cannot just focus on steam and ignore the rest of the playerbase and use that as the game is dying. That is a bad argument. I even forgot that most people use the PS5 too, 90ish% of the Japanese playerbase actually use PS5, then even had a liveletter and showed controller vs. Keyboard and mouse and the fact that most Japanese typically do not own a personal computer. There is also the new Xbox playerbase to consider as well. Steam does not account for them either. It is impossible for me or PassinLay to provide accurate statistics, so using that as an argument is invalid.

Yes, WoW did get bought out, but my main argument is it did not get shut down and is still going on. Which it is. Which is fact. And no way a "bad argument". If WoW, one of the most popular MMOs of all time can still continue on despite being bought out by other investors is proof in itself that a simple bad review or smaller playerbase for FFXIV is not making it in "danger of shutting down."