After Dawntrails abject Failure of a Story, there need to be serious Consequences

[Alchemii]

You do know almost like 80-90% of the playerbase use the Launcher and not steam, right...?

Pretty sure it's more than that, but even at 80-90% it's still a large enough sample size for statics.

On a side note, it's funny reading through this thread as people try and defend DT. It's like they have no self-awareness, and have completely forgot everything that came before DT.

[Kazemon15]

Pretty sure it's more than that, but even at 80-90% it's still a large enough sample size for statics.

On a side note, it's funny reading through this thread as people try and defend DT. It's like they have no self-awareness, and have completely forgot everything that came before DT.

So what came before DT? Another story you didn't like and is solely based on your opinion? Endwalker, which had the highest rating ever? It seems like you are the one who has no self-awareness.

[Alchemii]

So what came before DT? Another story you didn't like and is solely based on your opinion? Endwalker, which had the highest rating ever? It seems like you are the one who has no self-awareness.

I mean, I didn't have a problem with Endwalker. Could it have been better? Maybe, but not an issue. Endwalker post game was a bit meh, but I saw what they were trying to set up with the Aether transfer between shards to rebalance things. Shadowbringers was really good, with the only annoying parts being the fae. I didn't mind Stormblood, most my issues there were more on the launch problems, story wasn't as good as Heavensward, but it was passible. And yes I have recently replayed the MSQ on an alt, Stormblood is better than Dawntrail. But you don't actually care about that, no your just trying to throw it back in my face cause you don't have an actual argument or defense for Dawntrail. You don't have a defense for the fact that if you put even half a second of thought into what's going on in the Dawntrail story it falls apart, you have no defense for why Garfield suddenly got power boosted and had to be everywhere, and you have absolutely no defense for how all personality of other characters is dropped so they could all be cheerleaders for the worst character SE has ever created.

[Kazemon15]

I mean, I didn't have a problem with Endwalker. Could it have been better? Maybe, but not an issue. Endwalker post game was a bit meh, but I saw what they were trying to set up with the Aether transfer between shards to rebalance things. Shadowbringers was really good, with the only annoying parts being the fae. I didn't mind Stormblood, most my issues there were more on the launch problems, story wasn't as good as Heavensward, but it was passible. And yes I have recently replayed the MSQ on an alt, Stormblood is better than Dawntrail. But you don't actually care about that, no your just trying to throw it back in my face cause you don't have an actual argument or defense for Dawntrail. You don't have a defense for the fact that if you put even half a second of thought into what's going on in the Dawntrail story it falls apart, you have no defense for why Garfield suddenly got power boosted and had to be everywhere, and you have absolutely no defense for how all personality of other characters is dropped so they could all be cheerleaders for the worst character SE has ever created.

Okay, let me put that to the test.

Her power coming from nowhere? Hm... let's see. During her battle with Bakool Ja Ja, she mentioned that she has learned what was important to her and no matter what, those feelings will pull her through. What did we learn in Endwalker? Dynamis is another source of energy, another source of strength, heck the entire second half was about how Dynamis can empower people, and even limit breaks are Dynamis based. What did she use for most of the fight to defeat him? Limit breaks.

You need to put two and two together to figure that out, because they don't hold your hand to explain it to your face, which people have been complaining about by the way, but the moment they don't, it's suddenly "bad storytelling" because they don't. So which is it? Do you need it to be explained, or can you use the past story experiences and think and then apply it to the situation?

The Scions personalities are also just fine. In no way they are "cheerleaders", they are however, emotional support. We had tons of threads saying the scions overstayed their welcome and want new characters...and yet not people are mad they aren't the focus? Wuk Lamat needed to be a less developed in order to develop her in the story, which she was. Yes, her personality (which people find annoying but that isn't a character flaw, some personalities you aren't gonna mesh with) stays the same, but her naiveness and innocence slowly grew overtime, if you paid attention. You need to develop new characters when you introduce them or the story will go nowhere. But no, the scions weren't the focus this time and a new character was the main focus, because she wasn't developed yet...but last expansion, people wanted a new character to see their development and not the scions... ...Please make up your mind.

[honest_psycho]

Okay, let me put that to the test.

Her power coming from nowhere? Hm... let's see. During her battle with Bakool Ja Ja, she mentioned that she has learned what was important to her and no matter what, those feelings will pull her through. What did we learn in Endwalker? Dynamis is another source of energy, another source of strength, heck the entire second half was about how Dynamis can empower people, and even limit breaks are Dynamis based. What did she use for most of the fight to defeat him? Limit breaks.

I hate this "muh dynamis" defense so god damn much.

If it is soooo easy to just use dynamis, when that tears a lot of holes in the previous story.

Like why didn't Haurchefant use tank lb3 to protect from that attack?
Why didn't Yshtola use LB3 to fend of Zenos in rhalgars reach?

Where are so many examples of deaths that can be retconned to "could have been prevented if he just believed more".
I liked Endwalker very much but this Dynamis bs needs to die.

I'll let others explain to you what is wrong with he Scions in DT.

[ZXN]

You know I had an idea of what this thread would be like once I opened it and I am un-surprised to find out it is exactly like I thought it would be even down to the back and forths.

This is going to be a long two years.

[Eyrilona]

You know I had an idea of what this thread would be like once I opened it and I am un-surprised to find out it is exactly like I thought it would be even down to the back and forths.

This is going to be a long two years.

As back and forth argument threads go though, I am rather enjoying this one. We have made it to page seven already without a nasty ad hominem. For this forum, we are doing well!

[ZXN]

As back and forth argument threads go though, I am rather enjoying this one. We have made it to page seven already without a nasty ad hominem. For this forum, we are doing well!

Don't get me wrong. I agree that Dawntrail is a giant shitpile right now and that things DEFINITELY need to change going forward. But going scorched earth and wanting so many heads to roll is not really feasible and won't get any criticisms and concerns listened to. My stance is Hiroi and the current MSQ team shouldn't be fired, but instead brought back down to the side-quest/side-story writer status since that seems to be what their specialty is. Firing them all just really isn't viable depending on what is going on behind the scenes.

All you have to do is look at some of the massive threads that have been on for several months / years about various issues and complaints players have had, only to see absolutely none of it be heard. I may have hated Endwalker Main MSQ/Endwalker Post/Dawntrail Main MSQ, but throwing whole teams of people into the garbage with potentially no back up ready is just...not viable. Sure you COULD drag Ishikawa, Oda, and the old team back, and I am sure they would do it. But eventually they WILL just not want to do it anymore, and if the old devs/writers are not going to help the new devs/writers get some footing with that they're putting out then it's only going to keep going downhill.

Don't get me wrong either: I'm definitely not defending the work they have put out given how I've complained about DT in several other threads. But given how Square [Not the FF14 team, Square themselves] have pretty much pissed away so much money the past several years with a "quantity over quality" live-service game mindset along with just throwing so many projects into the dumpster: they probably either give FF14 pennies to work with, or give them none at all. It's a genuine possibility that currently there is no backup plan they can fall back on and it's something you have to consider when looking at the bigger picture. Yoshi-P and the rest of the 14 team might just genuinely be up a creek without a paddle and there is a hole in the boat and Square themselves is just shrugging at them and going "You'll figure it out, or else" and leaving them to fend for themselves.

Yoshi-P has stated he wants younger generations to handle the future of Final Fantasy, like with FF17 for example. But right now specifically Yoshi-P and the creative studio III team just might not be able produce the results they want, be it because they have stretched themselves too thin working on too many projects [like they announced they are doing currently], or because Square needs to throw away more money on shit that'll flop or be shut down a year or two later, so they won't spare FF14 pennies right now and are just banking on the fact the hardcore fans WILL continue to pay and play no matter what.

[AnotherPerson]

Okay, let me put that to the test.

Her power coming from nowhere? Hm... let's see. During her battle with Bakool Ja Ja, she mentioned that she has learned what was important to her and no matter what, those feelings will pull her through. What did we learn in Endwalker? Dynamis is another source of energy, another source of strength, heck the entire second half was about how Dynamis can empower people, and even limit breaks are Dynamis based. What did she use for most of the fight to defeat him? Limit breaks.

You need to put two and two together to figure that out, because they don't hold your hand to explain it to your face, which people have been complaining about by the way, but the moment they don't, it's suddenly "bad storytelling" because they don't. So which is it? Do you need it to be explained, or can you use the past story experiences and think and then apply it to the situation?

The Scions personalities are also just fine. In no way they are "cheerleaders", they are however, emotional support. We had tons of threads saying the scions overstayed their welcome and want new characters...and yet not people are mad they aren't the focus? Wuk Lamat needed to be a less developed in order to develop her in the story, which she was. Yes, her personality (which people find annoying but that isn't a character flaw, some personalities you aren't gonna mesh with) stays the same, but her naiveness and innocence slowly grew overtime, if you paid attention. You need to develop new characters when you introduce them or the story will go nowhere. But no, the scions weren't the focus this time and a new character was the main focus, because she wasn't developed yet...but last expansion, people wanted a new character to see their development and not the scions... ...Please make up your mind.

Even Dynamis isn't that extreme... otherwise anyone and everyone with ambitions are unstoppable forces of nature.
We don't get to use Dynamis off the tip of our hand no matter when. We need a party of 4 at minimum to access LB1, and a party of 8 for LB2, and LB3 is reserved only during bosses. Dynamis has limits in an aetherically suffused environment (such as Etheriys).
Endwalker is an exception because we went to a place where it is dynamis-rich and aetherically lacking. It would be fine if she used Dynamis, but not in the way where she just got power up after power up after power up to the point she can contend with foes far beyond her ability *alone*. If she's weak individually, then write her as a strong character who relies on friends to make up the difference.

And the scions are definitely a shell of their former selves. There is no chance G'raha would not be questioning the existence of said entities in the final zone when he himself gave pause when answering the Omnicron's question on existence in life. He was so strongly defined in his feelings to be able to persist against the Omnicron's logic in the events on Endwalker. G'raha directly agreeing to shutting them down rather than looking for alternative solutions is already a red flag that his character has somehow changed drastically in the final zone. The scions themselves are far more well equipped at solving problems involving the soul and yet we never bring them into the fold even though we are aptly aware they have the ability to fix things... WHY? The Levin sickness is one such example. Alisaie is with us during our time in Nine Solutions. There was not a single mention to Sphene or that we can solve the issue and show promise to work together to solve their issues. We just left innocents suffering for no reason at all. The Archon Creed defines the majority of the scions. "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom - it is indolence." The scions are not heartless and ignorant of helping those who are in need. We see this time and time again in The First and in The Source. They ended up destroying the entire characterization that makes the scions who they are in the first place in Dawntrail.

People aren't mad at the scions if they were well written. People are mad because the scions aren't well written and they just exist for the sake of saying they exist. It pleased no one and it isn't congruous to the storytelling at all.
And it IS bad storytelling when people all collectively point out the flaws of the writing to the point it happens in every part of the story. I didn't have a problem with Endwalker base expansion as much I had a problem with Dawntrail exactly because there hasn't been a lot of moments where a bit of examination creates tons of plotholes in the story.

[Kazemon15]

Even Dynamis isn't that extreme...

Had to shorten the quote for limits on posting, but...
Did we not see the havoc of what the Endsinger has done? To say Dynamis isn't that extreme would be ignoring the Final Days. And to add to this why others can fail (Haurchefant), again, we seen it in Endwalker. Dynamis can be good or bad. Putting faith into strength has always been FFXIV plot point, they just gave it a tangible name. The "power of friendship" trope seen in 90% of anime, that's basically Dynamis. Are we saying 90% of the shows who use this trope are considered bad writing? As for using limit break, the Scions have time and again were able to access limit break when you play them in solo duties, so again, if they can, why can't Wuk Lamat? Not to mention, the enemies can also access Dynamis (As we saw with Endsinger/Meteion), so yeah, it really depends on who's "feelings" are strongest in that moment.

And as a major G'raha fan, I disagree. The Endless need aether to sustain themselves indefinitely. Their aether reserves were diminishing. Yes, we could have let them "die" naturally once the reserves were done, but they explicitly stated that the Mesoterminal would not be able to be accessed unless the other terminals were shut down. How would they go about accessing the terminal then? I'm pretty sure if the dynamis beings on Ultima Thule were to go after their home planet, G'raha would be destroying them as well, even if he was conflicted, but they were ultimately harmless, so they let them be and tried to understand their circumstances.

As for the Levin sickness, the story is not over yet. Hell Alisaie didn't even do the Light-aspected aether sickness for Halric until the patch quests. Who's to say she won't help the levin sickness now that the dangers have passed? And as for the other things, again, the story isn't over yet. We still got the patch quests to see if the Scions try and help these issues.