You pull you tank question.

[JHU5TL3]

I made a post on Reddit mimicking similar. This is such a chaotically weird issue that seems to be one of the greatest poisons in this game's community, and I can't tell if people are trolling or dead serious.

I've played alot of MMO's and have main classed each of the trinity understanding that I am most comfortable in a dps role where I can turn my brain off, but I also can enjoy the healer role, as its a strategic joy to watch how the battle plays out and support its victory, and as a tank...I've only felt one way, I set the pace.

I'm not saying that egotistically, but doesn't that reality make this the weirdest argument because in game the way it plays out is ALWAYS the same.

DPS or Heals pulls because they want to, have beef with someone else, are impatient, or any other foolish reason, and then the conflict begins.

Why not...wait? Why not...speak up? Because they inherently WANT conflict. I have yet to see one person actually say, hey...mind if I pull a few more...they JUST DO. That's ugly, no other way to call it. It's like you feel like you're playing alone, and your "party" has to deal with it...instead of the point of being in a party and working together.

I like that someone mentioned Duty Support and how the AI operates, but I'll do you one better. In WHAT fantasy narrative can you name a healer or damage dealer that goes ahead of the meat shield to grab the enemy's attention without being a roguish character that can escape the danger without issue?

That all said...I really don't get it other than my belief that people that do that without communicating jack, are trolls. Nothing but.

[Chiru_Kai]

Why not...wait? Why not...speak up? Because they inherently WANT conflict.

It's not really wanting conflict. They want speed and predictability. If that conflicts with the tank... kinda shows the issue here.

The dungeon design is simplified: 2 trash pulls you can grab between two hard 'walls'. There's generally 2 packs of enemies each wall-to-wall pull. It has been this exact formula for the last 3 expansions or so, with only minor deviations from that.
If a tank doesn't follow that simple pattern, therefore becoming unpredictable and, inherently, making the dungeon take longer for 3 other players, then that is either a new player, new tank, or a troll looking for trouble. There is no real other option.

If it's a new player or new tank, you can easily grab those additional enemies, drag them to the tank, who *should* be AOEing, they grab aggro, healer can deal with any lack of mitigations that the tank may not be using because inexperienced. It may be "uncomfortable" for the tank to learn how to deal with this, but it's along the same level as learning that you gotta press your healing buttons as a healer. Learn by doing, learn by adapting to what people expect. Don't play badly and then not have consequences to your actions. That's nonsensical entitlement.
A genuinely new tank or player may go "ahh help I don't know how to do this" and the group wipes a few times, and then others can give tips and the new guy will be better for it. This is fine.

If it's a troll or a self-righteous tank who intentionally goes slow but they still have an ego to think that they can just go against the norm because they choose to, they will then intentionally not grab aggro, drop tank stance, and then proceed to throw a fit if you call them out on it. These are the ones who are very aware of what they're doing is against the norm, and they wish to justify it with having an ego trip in chat as a "YOU DARE CHALLENGE ME" like an edgy teenager.

Can this be done with communicating? Yes. And often a healer or DPS will generally say something like "you can do bigger pulls". But this is not a question, and even if posed as a question it really isn't a choice.
If the tank still refuses to pull more, others will do it for them. There is no real choice here. Tough luck. You MUST learn that pace. Just like a healer MUST learn to heal (and contribute to DPS if there is nothing to heal). You can jump high and low and throw a fit screaming that you're being forced to play a certain way. But no, you would be plain wrong. You made the choice to join for roulettes, or for any content with other players. That means that you must do your expected job as a tank, in the way how everyone does it, whether you like it or not. Get over it, or go play a different class.

[Alice_Rivers]

I'm often guilty of being with or slightly ahead of the tank when I'm healing, throwing DoTs on everything as we pass, in the full knowledge that if the tank is doing their job properly then they'll pick them up and I'll pay for my recklessness with a few auto attacks but I'll stop as soon as asked (which has happened a half dozen times). I hold no malice toward the tank, I'm just being efficient, I have had instances where the tank has thrown a tantrum either on me or on a dps (and me as a result) and generally in such a situation I am not above continuing without them - I have the kit to sustain a dps in the tank role as long as they don't try to pull too much or do something stupid.

I still stand by my previous statement that "the tank sets the pace and a good healer facilitates them", I've just grown as a player to not believe I always have to facilitate from the rear.

[Xirean]

I've long been of the opinion that the pace of the dungeon is a vote from all in the party. This vote can be made in chat, through actions done, or by simply going with the presented flow. If I'm tanking and dps or healer pulls a mob then that is clear communication that they want bigger pulls or a faster run. If someone types in chat that they want bigger pulls that is also clear communication. Both are fine. Neither is better than the other IMO.

I do also find it extremely weird when people think dps don't have a say in the pace of a run. They literally kill everything. DPS determine if a tank or healer has to spend extra resources or not.

[NailBach]

.... or by simply going with the presented flow.....

this, so much this.

[MoonmoonMoonmoon]

there are people who still do YPYT? sounds like you were unlucky i havent gotten any groups like that since the WoW refugees left, all my dawntrail dungeons have been smooth so far

not all of them have left. I'm one.

but I think that if a DPS pulls while someone is in a cutscene and I'm the tank. I'm 100% sitting on my thumbs until that cutscene is done so that the person watching said cutscene can have the best experience possible. I'm here for you sprouts.

[Aviatorhead]

You can jump high and low and throw a fit screaming that you're being forced to play a certain way. But no, you would be plain wrong. You made the choice to join for roulettes, or for any content with other players. That means that you must do your expected job as a tank, in the way how everyone does it, whether you like it or not. Get over it, or go play a different class.

There's no rule in the game that says you have to wall to wall as tank. Nor that you have to be as good at the game as other players want you to. If anything, YOU decided to queue the roulette that can give you anything from brand new players to vets. Expecting everyone to be at the same level as you is just silly. If you want a tank that is guaranteed to play how you want, then either play tank yourself or ask someone you know who can.

[Dante131]

well i had a ton of runs where i watched my healers gear and in the first pull how this healer behaves and i adjust to that. so if healer seems insecure to me ill pull less. Which resulted in wipes already becausy funny DPS thinks its his holy duty to pull the other packs while healer struggles to heal me already. When i out call them they are always acting like they didn´t know. exactly but i did why was this necessary ? just stick to the party god how hard can it be. I have sprint on cd everytime and will pull dont worry but if tanks do it slower there probably is a reason for it. Long story short you cant i repeat YOU CANT expect every run be the same as long as you dont do it in your grps. While playing DT i had 0 issues because i played classes where i knew i can keep me alive myself.

Another thing is if the tank guy is new or not confidant pullin for him will not help and you can run around and think everyone is just as good as me. So yeah i get why some tanks feel fcked up by this topic and some already stopped playing tank at all. Problem is we already had a time where nobody wanted to tank do we really miss that ? for my case idc i play stuff i like its just not going into my head why this have to be a topic. just be normal play the dungeon you probably will never see them again

[EchoingPulse]

There's no rule in the game that says you have to wall to wall as tank. Nor that you have to be as good at the game as other players want you to. If anything, YOU decided to queue the roulette that can give you anything from brand new players to vets. Expecting everyone to be at the same level as you is just silly. If you want a tank that is guaranteed to play how you want, then either play tank yourself or ask someone you know who can.

This, right here. Hard agree.

It's not really wanting conflict. They want speed and predictability. If that conflicts with the tank... kinda shows the issue here.

It truly is wanting to stir conflict. If the tank or healer is new to the dungeon or a sprout, then allowing them to pull single packs or however is the best option for everyone; otherwise, you run into wipe after wipe and eventually people leave, the dungeon fails, you are back to waiting for the queue.

And to drive in the point of Aviator said; Then you roll for roulettes, you are committing. If you are dropped into a group of Sprouts? Guess what you are playing to their speed. Don't like it? Leave.

[JHU5TL3]

Completely agree, and this goes along with my perspective and argued point. Not everyone is playing on the same level, in the same experience bracket, or with the same knowledge set, and STILL this is considered an issue. The problem still remains to me as a lack of clear communication. You either get tanks who don't care that their pace is out matching the skill of the party, the dps doesn't care that someone is in a cutscene or lagging behind, or even perhaps the healer is new. These are all examples, but the common occurrence is dead silence.

Most groups throw out a Hi o/ and that's the last true verbal communication allotted. Sure...the group keeps pace...sure...things get killed, but often in this situation the conflict is because of assumptions and lack of communication.