Picto makes the game less fun

[Lyth]

One of the downsides of trying to condense someone's performance down into a single number is that you lose information in the process. Let me give you an example as illustration:



If you look at the damage profiles for PCT, it's extremely burst orientated. I'm sure you know this intuitively, even when you look at the max damage on individual attacks like Star Prism or Mog/Madeen. You can land upwards of 200k on a single hit. Xenoglossy pales in comparison to that. The end result is that PCT ends up concentrating nearly all of its outgoing damage into its two minute bursts, while BLM has to catch up between bursts by simply being extremely consistent.

As was said earlier, the problem with these two extremes is that you just can't balance them against each other. The extent of PCT's advantage is going to vary based on fight duration, presence of downtime, and whether you end on a two minute window. Crit/DH can produce a large degree of variability in performance as well. I think trying to rebalance these jobs without looking at the damage profiles is meaningless, simply because they are designed so differently. Flat nerfs or buffs in isolation are not a solution, simply because you're going to end up with PCT either being overpowered or underpowered.

I don't think that it's at all acceptable to 'just wait and see what happens in FRU.' The problem that I have with balance decisions in this game is that they're always completely reactionary. Just look at the data that's out there for the more recent legacy Ultimates and it becomes fairly obvious where we're headed with this. You don't need PCT to completely dominate FRU to nerf it into oblivion for 7.2. For once, I'd like to see some proactive design choices where we avoid reactionary balance swings into extremes.

The solution is to directly address PCT's burst profile such that it becomes more compatible with the game design. That may mean utilising more Crit/DH effects to avoid massive damage variance on PCT's biggest attacks. That may mean shifting some of that burst potency off on to the job's base rotation. That may mean putting constraints on motifs such that they always require a target to use, and such that you can't load them up out of combat.

Alternatively, you'd have to revise every other job to have even more of an extreme burst focus within two minute buffs (if you could imagine that to be possible), and let everyone else also charge up their gauge during downtime/out of combat. Probably makes more sense just to rein back PCT's burst a bit, yeah?

On the subject of utility, I think you can pretend that any form of utility is 'optional'. They're all situational in their use, after all. RDM and SMN may never use raise once in a run, but their DPS is still docked significantly simply for having access to it. I think it's only fair for PCT's damage output to reflect its access to a number of very valuable utility effects.

Mao just chiming in here as BLMs.

I think it comes down to ensuring that every job provides some unique value, at the end of the day. The problem is when you design a job to be just better in all areas, at which point it becomes a direct upgrade. That's fine if you're willing to swap to the most powerful job in a given role, but less so if you're passionate about a particular job aesthetic.

Eventually, you start losing players because there's a community perception 'If you want to play tank, then you play WAR,' or 'If you want to play caster, then you play PCT' and so on. It defeats the point of having lots of jobs. Sometimes the only thing keeping someone from playing a certain role is the fact that the right aesthetic just hasn't been released yet.

To get an idea of the current situation, in the top 50 fastest clears, PCT is represented in 86.5-94.1% of groups, and BLM is represented in only 2.0-7.7% of groups. The next highest represented job after PCT is BRD, with 60-72% representation.

Rebalancing PCT is unavoidable, given the current state of affairs. But I expect to see a 'seesaw' balance between BLM and PCT for the foreseeable future as long as SE only balances with reactionary flat buffs (which is the only thing that they seem to ever do). To avoid that, I would much rather that they look at the underlying reasons behind the balance problems in their relative burst profiles and address those issues directly. If you know that you have to upset part of the player base, just do it once and fix the issue once and for all. FoTM balance just alienates players in the long run.

[Eraden]

I think it comes down to ensuring that every job provides some unique value, at the end of the day. The problem is when you design a job to be just better in all areas, at which point it becomes a direct upgrade. That's fine if you're willing to swap to the most powerful job in a given role, but less so if you're passionate about a particular job aesthetic.

Eventually, you start losing players because there's a community perception 'If you want to play tank, then you play WAR,' or 'If you want to play caster, then you play PCT' and so on. It defeats the point of having lots of jobs. Sometimes the only thing keeping someone from playing a certain role is the fact that the right aesthetic just hasn't been released yet.

To get an idea of the current situation, in the top 50 fastest clears, PCT is represented in 86.5-94.1% of groups, and BLM is represented in only 2.0-7.7% of groups. The next highest represented job after PCT is BRD, with 60-72% representation.

Rebalancing PCT is unavoidable, given the current state of affairs. But I expect to see a 'seesaw' balance between BLM and PCT for the foreseeable future as long as SE only balances with reactionary flat buffs (which is the only thing that they seem to ever do). To avoid that, I would much rather that they look at the underlying reasons behind the balance problems in their relative burst profiles and address those issues directly. If you know that you have to upset part of the player base, just do it once and fix the issue once and for all. FoTM balance just alienates players in the long run.

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

[BabyYoda]

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

It is true Mao it is true

[Galvuu]

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

Not really. In these fights PCT is still better than BLM, but it's not as awful as it was before the buffs.
It'll feel worse if you get some trash mechanic combos, like Wicked Thunder spamming the dumb water knockback.
But God it feels awful to play. If these idiots at CBU3 at least let you preserve the Astral Hearts through UI... that reopener before the transition is god-awful.

Snip.

Why are you trying to divine the reasoning of job changes in this game? There's none. They don't know what they're doing- even in the rare case where they make a plan, their actions run counter to that plan.
Tbh BLM damage isn't even that bad. But it feels awful to play in some situations (like that 4S reopener). It's just changes done by people who didn't understand the job before and don't play it now.
I got bored of PCT and have been playing some BLM, but God, my hatred for Flare Star deepens every passing day. What a god-awful ability, completely throws a wrench into the flow of the job. Jesus Christ, I've always known it was bad, but it's bad.

Therefore, it is logical that it's the buffless or "selfish" jobs leading the nDPS charts, as they should. Do note that the sentence of mine that you are quoting explicitly says that PCT is higher than the majority of melees at the different metrics, meaning that it's higher rDPS-wise than all of them but it obviously won't be higher aDPS-wise than SAM, VPR or BLM. In that sense, I do further clarify later on that PCT is right after these jobs in the aDPS charts, meaning that it's above MNK, RPR, DRG and NIN.
(...)
As I already said, we could argue that the differences are small enough not to matter, and that would be just fine, but I still believe that if PCT is to have higher aDPS than jobs with less personal damage such as NIN, then its rDPS should be a bit lower than theirs. I don't think it's healthy for game balance to repeat situations such as SAM in ShB or BLM in the later parts of EW. On the other hand, it could be argued that as long as any job can clear the content, these difference don't matter too much.
(...)
PCT is balanced around doing no damage for a specific amount of seconds while casting motifs. Any amount of downtime that reduces this no-damage period during uptime phases will hugely benefit the job. Yes, other jobs can recharge their CDs such as NIN's mudras but those are not balanced around doing zero damage for specific periods like PCT is.
(...)
In conclusion, I don't think PCT should be nerfed. I do believe it could be adjusted by moving some damage from burst into filler to avoid the potential balance problems in Ultimates or other relevant content when downtime is involved while keeping the overall full uptime damage the same. Additionally, I don't think the job should lose its utility or defensive capabilities either. If anything, what other jobs have should be reevaluated without falling into the homogenization pitfall.

I don't care a lot about this back and forth (although I lean more into agreeing with the other poster, Aco), but I think you have this part specifically backwards.
Having powerful adps jobs with a flatter damage curve (BLM/VPR) and a burstier one (SAM/PCT) is a good thing. These mechanics give the jobs identity. If this breaks balance, then the core, background issue is this 2 minute meta garbage and the multiplicative nature of raid buffs. There are many ways to address this- make some jobs free-form or make them adhere to different clocks (like 90s jobs), make raid buffs additive and not multiplicative, blanket nerf all buffs and provide compensatory potency buffs, diversify buffs (rip old Selene haste buff), etc. PCT is like a canary in the coal mine for an issue that's been getting exacerbated since ShB. This is why every job is a buffer/spender, because anything else (different clocks, more flat power curves) doesn't work with this 2 minute trash. I'd rather see that problem get addressed. Even if we did what you're proposing, you're just gonna get SAM as the biggest benefactor of the buffs next. This isn't going to help BLM at all. Do we kneecap SAM burst next? It's already tied for highest adps as we speak.

Like people are discussing surface-level solutions for a deeper problem this game has been brewing for a while. In a better version of the game (cough HW cough) this kind of design, with some jobs being bursty, some being flat in their dps curve and whatnot works. We just streamlined this game to a point where any deviation from their norm causes problems. I don't know. It's not like they're going to fix anything.

[Aco505]

I don't care a lot about this back and forth (although I lean more into agreeing with the other poster, Aco), but I think you have this part specifically backwards.
Having powerful adps jobs with a flatter damage curve (BLM/VPR) and a burstier one (SAM/PCT) is a good thing. These mechanics give the jobs identity. If this breaks balance, then the core, background issue is this 2 minute meta garbage and the multiplicative nature of raid buffs. There are many ways to address this- make some jobs free-form or make them adhere to different clocks (like 90s jobs), make raid buffs additive and not multiplicative, blanket nerf all buffs and provide compensatory potency buffs, diversify buffs (rip old Selene haste buff), etc. PCT is like a canary in the coal mine for an issue that's been getting exacerbated since ShB. This is why every job is a buffer/spender, because anything else (different clocks, more flat power curves) doesn't work with this 2 minute trash. I'd rather see that problem get addressed. Even if we did what you're proposing, you're just gonna get SAM as the biggest benefactor of the buffs next. This isn't going to help BLM at all. Do we kneecap SAM burst next? It's already tied for highest adps as we speak.

Like people are discussing surface-level solutions for a deeper problem this game has been brewing for a while. In a better version of the game (cough HW cough) this kind of design, with some jobs being bursty, some being flat in their dps curve and whatnot works. We just streamlined this game to a point where any deviation from their norm causes problems. I don't know. It's not like they're going to fix anything.

The reason why I used that specific example was simply to illustrate my point. I do agree with you: there should be different damage profiles for the jobs. The "problem" is that BLM didn't "fit" it as well as other jobs because it was one of the few ones that didn't fully adhere to the 2-minute meta. It's fine if PCT's aDPS is higher than RPR because the latter's burst takes longer or is flatter, as you say, as long as it's balanced.

Jobs like WAR or SMN (more in EW than now) are mostly 1-minute jobs, which we should have more of. They still have their buffs or biggest peaks at 2-minutes but the difference isn't that stark. Yes, in an ideal world, there would be different damage profiles and, perhaps, more common "niches" like 2-target fights or fights with adds similar to EX1. On the other hand, those niches can also become "unbalanced" in a game that "only" provides 12-15 Savage fights, 2 Ultimates, and 3 Criterion dungeons per expansion.

I don't want jobs to be homogenized but I also don't want a specific job to dominate in different aspects. If PCT has the best burst in the game and so benefits the most from buffs, then that's great. In EW, NIN's 2-minute burst was equal or even slightly better than SAM's until the latter was buffed. Imho, NIN should've kept the strongest burst back then considering that's all it had.

Surely the state of jobs will be addressed when 8.0 comes out, right?

[LilimoLimomo]

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

To say that PCT is "better" than BLM oversimplifies the issue. From the data I've seen, it seems to be understood that at present, PCT has more damage potential than BLM, or at the very least PCT offers a simpler path to access high damage relative to BLM, meaning that statistically your average player will do more damage with PCT.

But whether PCT is "better" than BLM depends on what you want out of your class. If all you want is high damage and you want it as easily as possible, then yeah, in that case, PCT is probably the better choice. But if you prioritize how much fun you're having and PCT doesn't engage you in the same way that BLM does, then their difference in damage output isn't going to meaningfully move the needle as long as both classes are viable.

It should come as no surprise that most players will chase big numbers and an easier win; keep that in mind when considering statistics on which classes are used to clear content. I don't think there's anything bad about being that kind of player, but remember that you don't have to be that kind of player if you don't want to be.

For my personal tastes, I just wanna play BLM. At the end of the day, I'd still play BLM if I was doing half the damage of a PCT, because the joy I get from playing content is inextricably tied to the experience of playing the class I enjoy. FF14 is a leisure activity that I play so that I can enjoy myself, so I'm going to play in the way that makes me the most happy. And that means playing BLM, because I love BLM.

Mao should chase what makes Mao happy.

[Eraden]

To say that PCT is "better" than BLM oversimplifies the issue. From the data I've seen, it seems to be understood that at present, PCT has more damage potential than BLM, or at the very least PCT offers a simpler path to access high damage relative to BLM, meaning that statistically your average player will do more damage with PCT.

But whether PCT is "better" than BLM depends on what you want out of your class. If all you want is high damage and you want it as easily as possible, then yeah, in that case, PCT is probably the better choice. But if you prioritize how much fun you're having and PCT doesn't engage you in the same way that BLM does, then their difference in damage output isn't going to meaningfully move the needle as long as both classes are viable.

It should come as no surprise that most players will chase big numbers and an easier win; keep that in mind when considering statistics on which classes are used to clear content. I don't think there's anything bad about being that kind of player, but remember that you don't have to be that kind of player if you don't want to be.

For my personal tastes, I just wanna play BLM. At the end of the day, I'd still play BLM if I was doing half the damage of a PCT, because the joy I get from playing content is inextricably tied to the experience of playing the class I enjoy. FF14 is a leisure activity that I play so that I can enjoy myself, so I'm going to play in the way that makes me the most happy. And that means playing BLM, because I love BLM.

Mao should chase what makes Mao happy.

Mao liked EW BLMs buts then Devs changed BLMs in DT and makes job more clunky. If job was backs to EW BLMs then Mao wouldn't mind so much nots doing as much DPS as PCTs.

[Carighan]

To say that PCT is "better" than BLM oversimplifies the issue. From the data I've seen, it seems to be understood that at present, PCT has more damage potential than BLM, or at the very least PCT offers a simpler path to access high damage relative to BLM, meaning that statistically your average player will do more damage with PCT.

I'd also go a step further: BLM feels so outdated in core gameplay, even at a significant damage advantage, you would have a reasonable cause calling Picto "better". It's just a complex word. You could even find plenty players that factually do more damage with Picto in such a senario than Black Mage, akin to how now there are plenty players who genuinely do more damage with Summoner than Black Mage in the same gear. There's a reason we tell people to play what they're comfortable with, higher effective output.

And Picto feels a lot more modern in combat flow than other jobs, so naturally it will appeal to caster players a lot more.

[Quuoooote]

If you look at the damage profiles for PCT, it's extremely burst orientated. [...] The end result is that PCT ends up concentrating nearly all of its outgoing damage into its two minute bursts, while BLM has to catch up between bursts by simply being extremely consistent.

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

[Sunako]

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

I have better idea.

After Ley Lines cast you can cast despair and flare star instant and without mana cost. Amplifier bring you 3 stacks instead of 1, so you can spam more xeno during burst window.

Oh and bring 5% mitigation to the party whole Ley Lines duration so BLM can have more utility.