True fault of current tank design: Lack of identity

[Carighan]

Even small variations like the length of the invuln CD means that there can never be a fight where Holmgang's 240s is required or PLD just wouldn't be able to do it with it's 420s Hallowed Ground.

I mean, there's no hard requirement of course, but you're effectively stating why WAR is always the main tank: Because they can invuln so many mechanics. And it feels like many fights are designed to work with that, having a mechanic come up frequently enough that a WAR + another tank for the interim moment can invuln all appearances but another tank duo cannot.

Which is... good. It gives identity to the shorter CD, it allows you to do something with your invuln that the other tanks just cannot do. Of course in this specific example it's not compensated in that the other tank invulns don't provide a unique upside in return. Or rather, not one that is relevant in any way.

[Vinter]

Again like the other person can you please read what they suggested I know how ARR WAR worked

They suggested hard up and downtime phases you can’t move around where only the uptime phase has mitigation, that is nothing like what you are describing

No that's not what I suggested.

[dwodmots]

I mean, there's no hard requirement of course, but you're effectively stating why WAR is always the main tank: Because they can invuln so many mechanics. And it feels like many fights are designed to work with that, having a mechanic come up frequently enough that a WAR + another tank for the interim moment can invuln all appearances but another tank duo cannot.

Which is... good. It gives identity to the shorter CD, it allows you to do something with your invuln that the other tanks just cannot do. Of course in this specific example it's not compensated in that the other tank invulns don't provide a unique upside in return. Or rather, not one that is relevant in any way.

There's no fight this tier where WAR can make plays with the shorter CD. M1 you can do the first buster, but that just means healers have to heal 1 tank a lot instead of two a little since it doesn't really do any damage, on M2 the busters are random between stack and spread so it takes more coordination to invuln them than not, on M3 the only busters that matter are too close together and M4's the same. The shorter CD has been made irrelevant by encounter design, which is exactly what I said.

[Tunda]

Tanks can't be unique while there is no variety of encounter design

[AddictedToWitches]

Tanks can't be unique while there is no variety of encounter design

this is also true
DRK can't be a magic damage tank because there are no fights that toy with this, not even in HW when DRK had most of the "magic tank" identity
I remember back in ARR, some coil fights required you to use the old cross-class awareness (mitigates critical hit damage) because the bosses auto-crit on their auto attacks and would have phases where they auto attack the main tank for around awareness' duration

I'm not saying we should have fights designed to where you HAVE to bring the "magic tank" to clear but just give us something meaningful

[Terhix]

Tanks can't be unique while there is no variety of encounter design

I don't think that's entirely true. You could make each tank an exact copy of each other and have one tank be the barrier tank, one tank be the HPS tank, one tank be the mitigation tank, etc., and they would still feel the same with the only difference being on how well they perform in different types of content. The sad thing is, while this is reductio ad absurdum, the current tank design is really not that far from it.

All tanks could, and I'd even argue should, be able to perform on roughly the same level in all types of encounters (magic or physical, repeated hits or single large hit, etc.), but they should also feel different when you play them. This means not only having different rotational buttons, but also different mitigation/recovery buttons. Step one for me would be to remove Rampart and all 40% mits, these buttons are the laziest of the lazy design. Replace them with unique mechanics, using different cooldowns and/or resources. The design space for this stuff is vast, just look at other MMOs, some of them have more tank classes than XIV and somehow manage to give them all a unique feel, meanwhile all we get is "well but your 2min cooldown 40% mitigation button that doesn't cost any resources has this minor effect, while that other tank's 2min cooldown 40% mitigation button has this other minor effect" (still an improvement over everyone just having 30% mit but you get my point). 2 of the 4 tanks in XIV don't even have any resource they use for tanking outside of just buttons having cooldowns, nothing at all to manage, just "break glass in case of emergency".

[Tunda]

I don't think that's entirely true. You could make each tank an exact copy of each other and have one tank be the barrier tank, one tank be the HPS tank, one tank be the mitigation tank, etc., and they would still feel the same with the only difference being on how well they perform in different types of content. The sad thing is, while this is reductio ad absurdum, the current tank design is really not that far from it.

All tanks could, and I'd even argue should, be able to perform on roughly the same level in all types of encounters (magic or physical, repeated hits or single large hit, etc.), but they should also feel different when you play them. This means not only having different rotational buttons, but also different mitigation/recovery buttons. Step one for me would be to remove Rampart and all 40% mits, these buttons are the laziest of the lazy design. Replace them with unique mechanics, using different cooldowns and/or resources. The design space for this stuff is vast, just look at other MMOs, some of them have more tank classes than XIV and somehow manage to give them all a unique feel, meanwhile all we get is "well but your 2min cooldown 40% mitigation button that doesn't cost any resources has this minor effect, while that other tank's 2min cooldown 40% mitigation button has this other minor effect" (still an improvement over everyone just having 30% mit but you get my point). 2 of the 4 tanks in XIV don't even have any resource they use for tanking outside of just buttons having cooldowns, nothing at all to manage, just "break glass in case of emergency".

it can be done yes but the room of improvement is so thin.. make it less likely to get new impressive changes for next expansions

tanks kit can be designed in 2 parts:
1- DPS part (really just copy any existing DPS job with simplified actions)
2- defensive part (this is the real challenge how to make them interesting and unique)

if we take tanks defensive part to make them unique it could be like this:

Shield tank (80% shield/20% other type of defensive utility)
Mitigation tank (80% defensive both magic and physical / 20% other type of defensive utility)
Max heal tank (80% Regen/healing-per-action, 20% other type of defensive utility)
Block tank (80% active and non active block, 20% other type of defensive utility)

and the challenge is to how we can add another tank in the roaster? it is really hard there need new things to add other than above.

and yes I agree rampart should be removed completely because it is not an addition like how other DPS jobs has but it is a mandatory to use.

[dspguy]

During late ARR, that's how WAR played. You'd use Inner Beast from the gauge, it did damage AND gave a 30% or 40% mitigation for 5-6 seconds or so. In other words, you had to actually plan out when to use abilities. And IB was on a GCD, not oGCD like every other mitigation WAR (and other tanks) have.

Again like the other person can you please read what they suggested I know how ARR WAR worked

They suggested hard up and downtime phases you can’t move around where only the uptime phase has mitigation, that is nothing like what you are describing

No that's not what I suggested.

Can I just laugh?

[Awful]

Tanks can't be unique while there is no variety of encounter design

This I agree with the encounter design specially in this Savage tier you don't interact with any tank busters meaningfully or with the bosses themselves, the bosses auto position themselves, and if you have a WAR you can cheese most of the TBs in 3. The encounter design needs to change, why is it that Ratfinx Twinkledinks is the only fight with adds where the OT has something to tank while the boss is fighting the MT?

I don't get why we don't have more design where there's adds or for the OT to do instead of "ok you take first lazer in m4 i'll voke during Ion Cannon" so they can invuln cheese, it'd be way cooler if you had to bait the blast or something and have the MT/OT cover for you, but no it's invuln and Shirk.

[Terhix]

if we take tanks defensive part to make them unique it could be like this:

Shield tank (80% shield/20% other type of defensive utility)
Mitigation tank (80% defensive both magic and physical / 20% other type of defensive utility)
Max heal tank (80% Regen/healing-per-action, 20% other type of defensive utility)
Block tank (80% active and non active block, 20% other type of defensive utility)

and the challenge is to how we can add another tank in the roaster? it is really hard there need new things to add other than above.

I think I haven't made my point clearly enough. I really don't think it matters at all, we could have two shield tanks, or two block tanks without diluting identity. Consider for a moment two abilities that are on paper mechanically distinct:

WAR's Thrill of Battle: +20% max hp, +20% healing received.
PLD's Bulwark: Guaranteed block.

Thrill is effectively a 16.(6)% mit, and ignoring the fact that it has an extra function in that you can use it just for the heal, if you were to use either of those for a tank buster they are functionally the same ability: 10s of roughtly the same %mit/eHP increase on 90s cooldown with no interaction with any other part of the kit of either job.

Of the short tank cooldowns Bloodwhetting and Heart of Corundum are also functionally the same button regardless of individual effects. Holy Sheltron stands out due to its 5s cooldown and Oath Gauge being the limiting factor, and TBN love it or hate it is the most mechanically distinct.

It does not matter what effects are being applied if the actual gameplay - the why and how you press buttons while you play the job - are the same. It wouldn't be a problem if two tanks were build around just plain % mitigation if they are actually different in how you play the job, maybe one tank has to stand in a ground aoe effect for it's mit to work, while another has to make sure to maintain a buff at all times to use theirs, etc. It's not trivial, for sure, but it's also not impossible, other games have done it, often with more available tanks than 4 we have.