True fault of current tank design: Lack of identity

[Vinter]

And if a tankbuster fell during the 30 seconds of downtime?

Shake It Off.

[Carighan]

And if a tankbuster fell during the 30 seconds of downtime?

I mean the current short-CDs are on a 25s CD except TBN. Naturally, no tankbuster chains faster than that. So it'd be 0 issue.

[Supersnow845]

I mean the current short-CDs are on a 25s CD except TBN. Naturally, no tankbuster chains faster than that. So it'd be 0 issue.

Did you read their post, they said delete all defensives and bake it into a forced up and downtime phasing system

[Carighan]

Did you read their post, they said delete all defensives and bake it into a forced up and downtime phasing system

Yeah but my point was that so long as the interval is 25-30 seconds, the "but what if in-between" is irrelevant, as nothing happens more frequently than that. It's the shortest interval the devs baked into tank-specific damage. I get the underlying problem as it restricts fight design, but the devs gave even TBN 15s CD, as if that has any use. They're obsessed with not challenging players too frequently.

...

Aaaand now I just realized the person you quotes said proc Inner Release, as in, automatically. Damn I look stupid now. >.> But yeah, that system would be workable if it's manually triggered tbh.

[dspguy]

And if a tankbuster fell during the 30 seconds of downtime?

During late ARR, that's how WAR played. You'd use Inner Beast from the gauge, it did damage AND gave a 30% or 40% mitigation for 5-6 seconds or so. In other words, you had to actually plan out when to use abilities. And IB was on a GCD, not oGCD like every other mitigation WAR (and other tanks) have.

The lack of identity is only one thing that is an issue. But I think the bigger issue is the ease of playing a job like tank. Tank stance gives you so much hate that 2-2-3 Fell Cleaves at the beginning of a trial/raid/etc is enough to hold hate for the entire battle if you just turn it off. We have so many mitigation tools, it is easy to just use more than you really need. Healers used to have Cleric Stance. They had to actually think about when they could focus on damage and when they had to focus on heals, since it was a 10s cooldown to switch. DPS jobs had a button they had to hit occasionally to shed hate.

Many MMOs have tank mechanics that require a tank to think about how to use their abilities to keep hate and mitigate damage. Or communicate and collaborate with the party to do so. We are just 8 players playing 8 separate jobs at the same time in the same area when we do a raid/trial/etc.

[Supersnow845]

During late ARR, that's how WAR played. You'd use Inner Beast from the gauge, it did damage AND gave a 30% or 40% mitigation for 5-6 seconds or so. In other words, you had to actually plan out when to use abilities. And IB was on a GCD, not oGCD like every other mitigation WAR (and other tanks) have.

The lack of identity is only one thing that is an issue. But I think the bigger issue is the ease of playing a job like tank. Tank stance gives you so much hate that 2-2-3 Fell Cleaves at the beginning of a trial/raid/etc is enough to hold hate for the entire battle if you just turn it off. We have so many mitigation tools, it is easy to just use more than you really need. Healers used to have Cleric Stance. They had to actually think about when they could focus on damage and when they had to focus on heals, since it was a 10s cooldown to switch. DPS jobs had a button they had to hit occasionally to shed hate.

Many MMOs have tank mechanics that require a tank to think about how to use their abilities to keep hate and mitigate damage. Or communicate and collaborate with the party to do so. We are just 8 players playing 8 separate jobs at the same time in the same area when we do a raid/trial/etc.

Again like the other person can you please read what they suggested I know how ARR WAR worked

They suggested hard up and downtime phases you can’t move around where only the uptime phase has mitigation, that is nothing like what you are describing

[Vinter]

Again like the other person can you please read what they suggested I know how ARR WAR worked

They suggested hard up and downtime phases you can’t move around where only the uptime phase has mitigation, that is nothing like what you are describing

No that's not what I suggested.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

..snip

Good read. However I think the issue goes beyond homogenization and more into the cheat the devs are using to design fights for balance. the short of it is that the dev's are removing factors that can drastically effect the outcome or flow of a fight. In doing so they also remove the skill ceiling for doing high-end encounters.

To expound on that - notice how often since endwalker bosses auto-position themselves? Its because the mechanics are designed with the expectation that the solution to the puzzle is often relatively static and predictable.

I will use M1s as a example - the side to side cleave will ALWAYS be launched from a static location which allows folks to preposition well in advance to it going on - making the boss location *almost* irrelevant; If boss positioning was less static then tanks overall would have more of a impact on boss damage due to being able to ideally position the boss to allow dps to maximize their damage - but then you would see damage also suffer if the tank poorly positioned that boss and so SE made it simple and just has the boss auto-position. I used M1s as a example and to explain the "almost" I will use the example of the clones following mouser 1 - note the difference in damage if your Tank knows the locations of the clone mechanics and positions quickly; the damage gain is one of the few situations where tanks have a significant impact on raid damage and I would like to see more of that (another good example is when you have a tank running around in circles and positional become a nightmare but thats generally folks trolling I find)

[Ayan_Calvesse]

(Cont because 3000 word limit sucks)
To speak to your suggestions.
WAR - I agree; simply make them a big health bar that can be filled easily due to healing augmentations; I would probably remove the 30% mit and simply give them a bigger health pool; I think the way "other" classes interact with tanks generally feels the "same" with the noteworthy exception of DRK. The idea is that Warriors use Bloodwhetting and their melee skills to replenish that HP deficit.

DRK - I would focus more on the TBN gameplay and remove its mana cost - instead I would have TBN generate a HP bubble that grows with your damage done (yes putting a upper cap on it) the idea being that the more damage and solid gameplay a DRK is doing; the bigger "encroaching darkness" or whatever the buff would be; creating new gameplay opportunities that at a glance look difference but really only upset the applecart slightly - while opening up avenues for DRK gameplay (such as shielding MT while working as OT without spending the valuable MP resource) I would go so far as to even make it function as a "explosion" when TBN gets popped. This would allow DRK to function as a "drain" without just becoming WAR and leaving Bloodwhetting alone.

PLD - I would focus more on the Shield block and Clemency gameplay - our confitieor chain feels very much like the Delrium chain imo and it feels wrong.

GNB - The "selfish" tank; that said I would like to see GNB survivablity have perhaps more of a trade off for its expected higher damage then it does. How you do that? Hell if I know - keep in mind every tank should be able to MT or OT every fight.

[elioaiko]

As much as ppl don't want to say it, but aggro management pre ShB at least made you check the aggro meter. Managing aggro is so easy now, that it's quite shocking when tanks don't grab aggro (and it does happen sadly).

The devs really don't like balancing by unique playstyles bc ultimately they want them to function similiarly in damage, which means they have to do samey rotations with slight variations.