Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Supersnow845]

Pay me billions of dollars like FF14 has made and I'll work it right up for you. It's not a problem we should have to solve or suffer for, it's the devs'. Why are we wasting our energy asking the dev's to make tanking unfun to play because healers don't like their roles anymore? Anyone remember the tanking shortage back in the day? It was so bad that there's achievements with MOUNTS attached to tanking high level duties. Far worse than any healer strike. Let's go back to that then. While we're at it, let's remove all utilities from all DPS jobs and make every single job in the game a boring husk so the healers can press cure 2 a couple extra times.

People who think tanks being immortal gods is good for balance and completely hyperbolising what healers want to improve their role

Name a more iconic duo

[All_Nonsense]

Name a more iconic duo

Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch in all fairness. Next complaint.

[Venks]

So I was wondering would tanks be okay if say healers did more damage than tanks, and tanks did around the same damage healers do right now so healers are not sidelined in the speed running meta?

Sure. But I don't think this changes anything. Tanks would still be necessary in hard content, but healers could still be sidelined by dps for faster clear times.

The way I see it healer players shouldn't worry about being sidelined as it isn't a real problem for 99% of all players. Hop onto party finder right now and you'll see the role most parties are waiting on are healers.

Healers are in high demand.

Healers being boring to play is the real problem that needs addressing IMO

[Rayplicant]

So I was wondering would tanks be okay if say healers did more damage than tanks, and tanks did around the same damage healers do right now so healers are not sidelined in the speed running meta?

I ask because I said overall this would be a messed up nerf, but was wondering if others felt the same.

NO

We almost had this scenario during 5.0 when WHM initially got lillies+afflatus misery. WHM's were doing as much dmg as most tanks except without a rotation and just glare spam.

That felt miserable for tank players. Healer DPS is BORING. That is the main issue, not how much damage they output. Balancing the game around speed running or non-standard comps is a terrible idea.

Now if you suggested giving healers an actual DPS rotation and bringing their damage up to the same tanks that would be a better suggestion imo. However this game does a horrible job teaching players (especially healer) to DPS. So it would only exasperate an issue that is already prevalent in most casual/midcore content which is healers that don't DPS or flat out refuse to do so.

You need to think about how these changes would affect the entirety of the game and not just in an endgame raid environment.

[AmiableApkallu]

The way I see it healer players shouldn't worry about being sidelined as it isn't a real problem for 99% of all players. …

Healers being boring to play is the real problem that needs addressing IMO

The thing is, one reason healers are boring to play is because they can spend much of a fight mashing one singular DPS spell instead of, well, healing.

That is the same reason why they can be sidelined — other jobs can take care of what relatively little healing there is to be done.

So while it's true that ye olde random PF healer doesn't need to worry about being locked out just yet, every healer-free clear highlights what's wrong with job vs. encounter design.

[Venks]

The thing is, one reason healers are boring to play is because they can spend much of a fight mashing one singular DPS spell instead of, well, healing.

That is the same reason why they can be sidelined — other jobs can take care of what relatively little healing there is to be done.

So while it's true that ye olde random PF healer doesn't need to worry about being locked out just yet, every healer-free clear highlights what's wrong with job vs. encounter design.

I agree. Currently how most encounters are designed healers are only necessary to cover low gear parties or parties that play sub-optimally. Almost all parties are suboptimal so that's why I don't think there's anything to fear about healers not being invited to do hard content. But as the weeks go on as people learn the fights and get better gear, that does make healing less enticing.

I'm personally a huge fan of the unique tank buster in Worqor, that's one that really feels like two tanks are necessary rather than something you can just press a Tank immune on. I'd like to see more encounters with thoughtful design like that which really highlights a role. Healers should have moments like that as well.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Sure. But I don't think this changes anything. Tanks would still be necessary in hard content, but healers could still be sidelined by dps for faster clear times.

The way I see it healer players shouldn't worry about being sidelined as it isn't a real problem for 99% of all players. Hop onto party finder right now and you'll see the role most parties are waiting on are healers.

Healers are in high demand.

Healers being boring to play is the real problem that needs addressing IMO

There are multiple issues that are causing Healer to be bad and boring.

But for starters, one of them is that they've already been sidelined by the game's design as DRK is probably the main tank that still needs a Healer (so thanks to all the DRK players out there)...

And in a state of the game where Healers aren't needed to heal, what to do they do? They DPS, but they're the lowest DPS role in the entire game and their entire rotation is 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

[Bobby66]

NO

We almost had this scenario during 5.0 when WHM initially got lillies+afflatus misery. WHM's were doing as much dmg as most tanks except without a rotation and just glare spam.

That felt miserable for tank players. Healer DPS is BORING. That is the main issue, not how much damage they output. Balancing the game around speed running or non-standard comps is a terrible idea.

Now if you suggested giving healers an actual DPS rotation and bringing their damage up to the same tanks that would be a better suggestion imo. However this game does a horrible job teaching players (especially healer) to DPS. So it would only exasperate an issue that is already prevalent in most casual/midcore content which is healers that don't DPS or flat out refuse to do so.

You need to think about how these changes would affect the entirety of the game and not just in an endgame raid environment.

Given your last point, how is keeping tanks in their current state good for the overall game? As mentioned in the OP the posed question was framed this way because this was something people suggested and wanted to gauge how people thought about it. Even in their comments they stated it was just a bandaid fix. I think the point of the suggestion was to show that no matter what overall tank players refuse to take any shot at their own gameplay for the sake of healers, but at the core that is what needs to happen. Giving healers a more tools to engage with DPS does not solve the issue for those that wish to heal either. Tanks need to be nerfed for healers to get their gameplay improved. You can keep the tools but nerf the overall damage they take but I doubt tanks would be fine with that. Cause what I have seen tanks do not want their failure state to be dependent on healers.

Is it really balanced that tanks can sustain themselves even in dungeon content with a healer?

[whiskeybravo]

I mean, it is possible for healers to out damage a tank in dungeons already, the only thing they really lack compared to tanks is single target damage. But I wouldn't say they need to do more than tanks, because melees do tend to out damage casters in general.

I don't see a bump in ST damage for healers being much of an issue per se, I guess it just depends if they'd be happy merely doing more damage with the same 2 skills or not.

Another consideration, however, would be to add more damage support in to their kits. AST provides a decent amount of rDPS, for example. If instead of a direct damage buff they gained more support ability for increasing damage, maybe even a larger change that only healers have rDPS support function, it'd be easier to balance those outlying ranged phys and ensure healer viability at the same time.

[Alice_Rivers]

I don't mind so much only having two attacks, I don't even mind all that much having lower damage output, not to say I'd complain if I were given a damage buff but as I've said pretty much everywhere else: I'm there to heal. My complaint is that as a healer, I'm not healing, WAR and PLD are healing. usually it's just themselves but with increasing frequency WARs are healing the rest of the party too. Like... Where does the healer role fit into this paradigm?