Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Papayatar]

Didnt we just have an entire beast tribe that involved the Omnicrons who technically are robots with uploaded consciousness?

Everyone always bring up Ultima Thule or the Omicrons as a solution for the Endless, but wasn’t the issue for the Omicrons that they p.much lost their humanity or w/e makes living important? With no small part of them “evolving” by getting stronger and better through conquest of other stars and improving themselves after destroying places (like their war with the Dragonstar and then some of the modified dragons you see in the one dungeon from the Omicrons experimenting).

I guess as far as we know Alexandrians could be fine with a robot body, Robo-Otis is p.much the closest to the Omicrons. But they deemed putting everyone in Robo bodies not viable, for some reason unknown to us, or we would have saw more people like Robo-Otis.

The Omicrons seem to value function over form, and improved themselves based on what was the superior option regardless of looks. So it’s possible their memory transfer process varies by a lot from the Alexandrians, and may even not factor in the soul in their process either.

[KageTokage]

None of the UT shades in general have souls, but nonetheless are treated no differently from actual living beings.

That said, none of the reasons they bring up for terminating their existence felt terribly convincing to me aside from the "sustained by living aether" bit...and I question why they were even designed with that specifications in the first place.

[Magikazam]

Didnt we just have an entire beast tribe that involved the Omnicrons who technically are robots with uploaded consciousness?

We also had Omega who canonically ''developed'' a soul.

[Nihility]

The omicrons ended up as just robots and they couldn't grow or change so all they could do was mass murder everything because it was the only solution that resulted in 100% chance of safety. The ones we meet are just part of the ultima thule memory museum of exterminated species as far as i know so they're not even the real thing.

the endless are just... memory recordings kept inside a habitat. Being able to simulate feelings does not make it real. Even at the best of times they were just turned on or off depending on who was visiting. Keeping them "alive" required killing actual alive people on a regular basis too. It's really kind of a black and white situation

[OMGJesuis66]

A decade this game has existed, and people still do not realize that side content cannot ever be brought to MSQ.
Doesn't matter that 'we had a beast tribe like that', beast tribes are not going to be brought into the MSQ because they cannot force people to do side content.
Plus, the situation is vastly different, we cannot even say that those beings in Ultima Thule even exist. All of that was made out of dynamis, a recreation from Meteon itself, it does not mean those creatures are alive, no matter what the Beast Tribe quest says.
The quote from Emet being brought constantly is such a false symmetry that is also hilarious. And then people want to argue about 'sloppy writing', when the fault in their critical thinking to even understand how basic and non-comparable both scenarios are is huge.
But yeah, sure. We format a server and because of that we 'commit genocide'. Ffs.

[AnotherPerson]

The omicrons ended up as just robots and they couldn't grow or change so all they could do was mass murder everything because it was the only solution that resulted in 100% chance of safety. The ones we meet are just part of the ultima thule memory museum of exterminated species as far as i know so they're not even the real thing.

the endless are just... memory recordings kept inside a habitat. Being able to simulate feelings does not make it real. Even at the best of times they were just turned on or off depending on who was visiting. Keeping them "alive" required killing actual alive people on a regular basis too. It's really kind of a black and white situation

Well, not exactly. The Endless have the capacity to affect Dynamis. That means even with just memories, they are able to experience, feel, hear, think, and respond accordingly to their emotions. It's not just an AI simulated response, or else Dynamis would not have been influenced in any way because they aren't 'feeling' the emotions they are acting out. We see this through Deadwalk Strayborough and from shutting off the Terminals still have people roaming around without the Terminal during MSQ, meaning they are not connected to the terminal's memory banks / not connected to the burning lifeforce of aether as sustenence. They exist purely through the strength of their obsessions/emotions and can persist even without direct access to it. Even Sphene in the final trial managed to influence Dynamis to restore her memory banks and go off on Wuk Lamat.

They were more or less copies of the original, with thoughts, hopes, and dreams.

In that regard, they're pretty much not different from any other existence in Ultima Thule. They just happen to be a race who is made of non-corporeal forms (not unlike the Ea). It's quite possible that the Endless can exist without a soul under the right circumstances -- like not having any alternate forms of aether drown out their dynamis to continue existing even when the terminals are shut down. Unfortunately, Sphene and Alexandria did not know the existence of Dynamis (and probably why only this specific form of aether and the amount of aether required to sustain the Endless was so difficult and cost-ineffective to maintain).

Heck, I suspect because they no longer have a functional soul but can still act like one provided the proper energy source is given, it's quite possible if Sphene discovered Dynamis, she wouldn't be able to use it either since Dynamis can be drowned out with aether, and thus makes it hard for electrope with lightning aspected aether and dynamis to play along together since they need to find an entirely isolated location with pure dynamis, and she has no clue how to find that as Dynamis is not detectable with aether.
In other words, we could provide a solution and the Endless probably could just exist in Ultima Thule perfectly fine, but any reflection and its fragmented form is not okay, even if the aether is very weak -- simply because aether exists and have a negative effect on sustaining existence for those who aren't even 1/14 aetherically dense.

A decade this game has existed, and people still do not realize that side content cannot ever be brought to MSQ.
Doesn't matter that 'we had a beast tribe like that', beast tribes are not going to be brought into the MSQ because they cannot force people to do side content.
Plus, the situation is vastly different, we cannot even say that those beings in Ultima Thule even exist. All of that was made out of dynamis, a recreation from Meteon itself, it does not mean those creatures are alive, no matter what the Beast Tribe quest says.
The quote from Emet being brought constantly is such a false symmetry that is also hilarious. And then people want to argue about 'sloppy writing', when the fault in their critical thinking to even understand how basic and non-comparable both scenarios are is huge.
But yeah, sure. We format a server and because of that we 'commit genocide'. Ffs.

Once, the Crystal Tower Alliance Raids was considered side content. It is not mandatory to clear them to progress with MSQ. It made no sense with the plot after though, so eventually it was included to be done in the MSQ as mandatory content.

And side content can be canon too, so that makes no sense. The residents in Ultima Thule may be dead in the aetheric sense, but they are certainly alive and kicking when using dynamis. Heck, there's an entire new world and can give birth to new lifeforms through Dynamis.

As for shutting down a server and committing genocide, I think a good saying refers to what Emet said. "I do not consider them alive, ergo I did not kill them." You can imagine that aged very poorly once you put that into perspective. The sundered are sentient beings with thoughts, hopes, and dreams, just far weaker and a fatal flaw of dying from old age. The Endless are also the same sentient beings, except with a fatal flaw in requiring specific forms of sustenance. They are alive. Flawed imperfect beings, but still alive.

[CidHeiral]

It's never been determined in this story what "alive" really means, it's never been defined.

It has been defined in detail on multiple occasions.

That DT zone did however show us thinking, feeling people with hopes and dreams yet said that deleting them was not something to feel bad about simply because they were 'incomplete'. Emet-Selch felt that despite the sundered's abilities to think, feel, have hopes and dreams they were not truly alive simply because they are 'incomplete'. Same thing.

You seem to have a very fundamental misunderstanding of both those sections of the game. I'd recommend going through again on New Game+ and paying closer attention to what is being said.

[Nihility]

Well, not exactly. The Endless have the capacity to affect Dynamis. That means even with just memories, they are able to experience, feel, hear, think, and respond accordingly to their emotions. It's not just an AI simulated response, or else Dynamis would not have been influenced in any way because they aren't 'feeling' the emotions they are acting out. We see this through Deadwalk Strayborough and from shutting off the Terminals still have people roaming around without the Terminal during MSQ, meaning they are not connected to the terminal's memory banks / not connected to the burning lifeforce of aether as sustenence. They exist purely through the strength of their obsessions/emotions and can persist even without direct access to it. Even Sphene in the final trial managed to influence Dynamis to restore her memory banks and go off on Wuk Lamat.

they're just xerox copies of already dead people being fed souls. The soul that's affecting the real world is the ones stolen from sacrifices
You can make dead tissue move by sending electrical signals through it, that doesn't make it alive

killing someone and injecting an AI script into the corpse to simulate someone else until it degrades is not a shades of gray issue

[AnotherPerson]

they're just xerox copies of already dead people being fed souls. The soul that's affecting the real world is the ones stolen from sacrifices
You can make dead tissue move by sending electrical signals through it, that doesn't make it alive

killing someone and injecting an AI script into the corpse to simulate someone else until it degrades is not a shades of gray issue

So correct me if I'm wrong because I think I might be missing something basic here... From what I understand, Alexandrian technology is able to separate separate the soul into 2 different factors - the soul's memory and the soul's life force (life aether). Those are the two parts that comprises the incorporeal aether of the soul. The Endless are not given a full soul and overwriting the memories of that soul. They're given the soul's energy reserves because the Endless itself is just the soul's memory portion (stored in electrope) only without any life aether to sustain it. Together, they form a working function of an "aetheric soul" to be considered alive.

From my Point of View, it's like the hardware (memories that construct a person) and the batteries (life aether) are separated. The hardware isn't being replaced, the battery is. The Aetherial Sea does something similar as it resets the hardware (clean memory wipe after a period of time for reincarnation) but doesn't remove the existing battery. However, Alexandrian technology effectively does the same thing as the Aetherial Sea, just with the caveat of retaining the memories of said people 'who comes back to life' as an Endless with specific racial circumstances (lacking a flesh body because it runs on 'light' as its medium for its corporeal form) instead of being a full fresh start with randomized racial circumstances.

Based on what we know about aether, all the scions during Shadowbringers used a soul vessel during the time their souls were moved out of their bodies. It was comprised of both the auracite for the soul (soul's aether) and the blood infused crystal to carry the memories. They have a lot of similarities in their circumstances with the Endless during that period of time (namely separated components put together creates a working soul again). As noted, the Endless are comprised of memories and life aether to be 'alive', but it's difficult to sustain them.

Which brings about the idea of Allagan cloning. Doga and Unei are effectively dead people who are cloned from the memories of the original Doga and Unei. The clones lived in Sharlayan for a period of time as to find the inheritor of the Crystal Tower. They are effectively manmade, have a direct purpose / program upon their creation and work to execute it. Not unlike the AI of the Endless or even of the Sphene we know. However, Doga and Unei's memories and experiences they made after roaming in Sharlayan and Eorzea are their own. Are they alive then, or can you consider them advanced AI? Their soul is definitely not the soul of the original, but a copy. The originals may be dead, but during the time we met the clones, I consider both Doga and Unei, the two that did their utmost to carry on with the Crystal Tower legacy and creating a path for us to return back from the World of Darkness, I consider them alive as sentient people.

The only reason why the Endless is considered unethical to exist is because the original soul's hardware and battery can't be recycled into the aetherial sea together to create new life when they lose that battery (thus interrupting reincarnation for said soul). If they were to be able to replace the battery source with a sustainable one, then there would be no difference from being 'alive' other than having a different racial features from what your original race was.

To me, the Endless are certainly alive, but the Endless are also clones of the original who lead another life. You can argue whether it is ethical to keep them alive since they aren't the same people as the dead and can be morally wrong for another to take their place, but the residents in Ultima Thule are all technically clones and without a soul too. It doesn't mean they aren't alive either. If you look at them like separate individuals (considering the circumstances of their existence boils down to a full memory wipe after their time is up and a new one eventually takes their place), I don't think it's accurate to say they are not alive.

Hmm... now I think about it... if Allagan cloning technology can replicate life aether that's another plot hole that could've had an easy solution to the lack of life aether problem since G'raha had full access to this technology.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Hmm... now I think about it... if Allagan cloning technology can replicate life aether that's another plot hole that could've had an easy solution to the lack of life aether problem since G'raha had full access to this technology.

Unless he could get it built and running before Sphene could initiate dimensional fusion and start attacking the Source again, it's irrelevant.

That's one thing that alternate solutions keep forgetting about. Sphene was in the process of preparing for dimensional fusion when we went through Living Memory. Despite not being a gameplay mechanic (imagine how much people would complain if an entire zone had a time limit!), in story, we were on a clock.