Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't. Plenty of high end content where healers are needed generally. Let me know when healers are replaced in overall DF and PF by tanks, and not just people failing to normal mechanics or dying to enrage. Then you can say we have a problem. Until then, find an actual problem. Or don't and keep wasting your time. Up to you~. I'll continue to help healers out with having smooth runs though, the Healer strike is going so well after all that queues haven't changed one bit.

[Kabooa]

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't.

[MikoRemi]

You and me both friend~.

[Shurrikhan]

Holmgang wasn't changed because Hallowed "stepped out of line", it was because 2.0 WAR had basically no mitigation skills and was useless in Coil compared to PLD. It got its own unique mitigations in 2.1- IB on the GCD, Vengeance with a lower % and lower cooldown than Sentinel, Holmgang with a target requirement, 6s duration, root and no true invuln.

The lack of mitigation, or more importantly any sustain that scales with incoming damage, explains the addition of sustain that scales with incoming damage. Holmgang didn't do so even after its change. They were just as free, however, to have damage taken increase its self healing instead of copying over %DR if not for the devs following (perhaps coincidentally) the minimalist requests to just make WAR more like PLD directly.

All jobs got new DPS skills going into HW.

That's not relevant to WAR's copying PLD's double-stance, though. Note that DRK did not get one, instead simply toggling their defensive/enmity stance off, just as Warrior had done before. Deliverance itself, as compared to just amping Warrior's base damage and toggling Defiance on and off while allowing Wrath to be generated regardless, came from (A) seeking job action trailer flare and (B) some Warriors making a big deal out of the second (first acquired, but the one in excess of what WAR had) stance rather than just job action access.

The pacification on Berserk was removed in 4.0, at the same time Shake it Off was added, so SiO was useless from the start.

I didn't say otherwise. My point was that with 4.0 you had many who wanted to see either a passive damage stagger DR that could be purged or a return to the burst and break utility previously held. Others would be satisfied with no less than a Divine Veil equivalent. We got the latter.

People were pretty happy with Raw Intuition/Nascent Flash after NF got changed to be usable on yourself. I doubt many people, if any, asked for it to be changed to flat healing.

I was more active on the JP threads at the time, so --as I already said in what you replied to-- I could be recalling posts more from there, tbf. And again, simply reverting it is exactly what I was asking for.

Leave sustain how it is, increase damage done/frequency by trash and bosses in dungeons. WAR will require healing between Bloodwhettings, and healers will have a reason to cast more than 3 oGCDs per trash pack/1 oGCD every time a boss does a raidwide.

And then you require that much more from everyone else as well, now meaning that taking a WAR is a (further) rDPS gain if we should ever develop more challenging content with frequent opportunity for multi-target attacks.

I wouldn't really care if Bloodwhetting went back to being a % of damage dealt, but I do think it needs to keep the healing on multiple targets. WAR has had that since Bloodbath in ARR.

Agreed.

[Shurrikhan]

Healers aren't fun because they don't have a proper rotation.

DPS do, so if you want a rotation you can play that role. Turning healers into DPS is taking away from what we have so it's not preferable. More attack options would great for healers, but they should also remain healers.

Ehh.... Why does that have to strictly account for more of their kit than mitigation, snap threat, etc. accounts of tanks' kits, though?

Lest this get confusing, my issue with WAR is that it's typically straight-up overpowered, frequently getting a third or half more of its "perk" at an insignificant loss elsewhere or none at all. That it leaves no room for healers to make full use of their kits sucks, but that can also be solved by...

• Increasing the healing requirements (though as challenge increases the relative advantage of bringing a Warrior to its advantaged contexts also increases; while this isn't linear, under present scaling, it would take far beyond Savage Criterion levels of incoming damage for its self-healing in AoE to fall to merely competitive with other jobs' analogs), or
• giving healers alternate spenders for those healing resources (though, again, that then makes Warriors all the more advantageous since the excess healing could be converted into something useful).

I just don't see why any of that would ever be mutually exclusive to changing Warrior's "identity" from simply "typically best at everything save maybe theoretical maximum DPS" to something healthier and more gameplay-related.

And, to be clear, I wouldn't mind a self-sufficient tank if on average what rDPS could be indirectly gained through that self-sufficiency came at roughly equal cost to the given tank's own damage, with turtling being only situationally optimal. I'd love to see more versatility among tank outputs, more risk-reward, more interplay between tanks' defensives and healers' critical offensive opportunities (e.g., the GCD in which to reset DoTs) and vice versa, etc. It just sucks that right now we're seemingly barred from using that for gameplay just because some modern Warriors want to claim it as a unique perk even while showing nothing but contempt for any possibility of ever actually paying for its value.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

I don't think anyone's arguing that. But consider: Would you be happier with more opportunities to meaningfully use mitigation, or fewer? Would you be happier with more opportunities to coordinate with your cotank, or fewer? Would you happier with more opportunities to position bosses to the advantage of your raid, or fewer? If the first on any of those, how would you feel if precedent abruptly shifted to there being no tank swaps, no ability to move bosses, and CDs so much fewer that scheduling is pathetically lenient... and someone then just told you to just accept that new Blue DPS reality? Should there by no room for critique of such changes?

As for the idea that healers arent fun simply because they lack a rotation, I don't think a strict "rotation" plays significantly into the experience of any of my favorite healers or even tanks. Heck, it's barely even the main attractor among DPS in my favorite MMOs. I know XIV would condition us to believe otherwise, but there can be more to gameplay than just rotational loops and macrorotational ("raid buffs") cycles.

[PyurBlue]

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

Dungeons aren't hardcore, but there is a difference between easy and AFK which is why dungeon difficulty was requested in DT. Dungeons also span levels 15-100 instead of a handful of level 90 duties.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

I haven't forgotten at all. Healer DPS uptime is 100% with all tanks as I've said before. WAR has nothing to do with DPS, it removes the need to heal, that's the problem.

find an actual problem.

I did and came here to discuss it. Dungeons are better when the tank isn't WAR, and even if the other problems with dungeons were addressed it would still leave WAR overpowered. If your solution to that is Criterion, we need that to a level 100 option at the minimum. And if I have to go into dungeons at all, it would be nice if they didn't feel like a chore.

Ehh.... Why does that have to strictly account for more of their kit than mitigation, snap threat, etc. accounts of tanks' kits, though?

So I understand your question, you're asking why healing skills have to account for more a healer's ability set than mitigation does for tanks?

If so I'm not implying that as a metric, but I do like the amount of healing options we have now and I'd like them to feel meaningful. Cutting a few for DPS would be OK, but I wouldn't want to lose most of them. When it comes to tanks, there are a lot of situations where they feel like DPS lite and in those situations they're not the most exciting classes. It's another issue to address.

[Supersnow845]

Except you fail to realize somehow even now that while dungeons are done often, they are general roulette content, content we just do without much issues. Want one of those? Go do Criterion and tell me how WAR can replace a healer there. Try it. The amount of people complaining are limited to here, so I'm not sweating. It's just silly to see the same thing over and over with some expectation of change.

You also seem to forget how were playing a game where DPS is important for everyone. Tell me what happens for DPS checks when healers don't do DPS at all. Why is it that we have things like Green DPS, Blue DPS, and normal DPS. This is the game it is, it's been said earlier but if you want a game where healing is 100% of the thing you do, you're in the wrong game.

If it was an actual problem it would've been quickly fixed, it hasn't. Plenty of high end content where healers are needed generally. Let me know when healers are replaced in overall DF and PF by tanks, and not just people failing to normal mechanics or dying to enrage. Then you can say we have a problem. Until then, find an actual problem. Or don't and keep wasting your time. Up to you~. I'll continue to help healers out with having smooth runs though, the Healer strike is going so well after all that queues haven't changed one bit.

You’ve already replaced healers in casual content.

People go on about savage clears without healers because when people complain about healers being useless in casual content people like you go “casual content doesn’t mean anything come back when savage is done without a healer” then that happens as well and you still deflect

In casual content literally nobody matters but the tank. You don’t need the healer, you don’t need the DPS (though they are at least convenient because they do more damage).

This is a problem across all content that you just refuse to see because you are a tank and so benefit from it. Tanks are the only role that matter right now, everyone is forcibly reliant on the tank in all content with no exceptions unless you want to gimp your DPS and the tank at no point has to rely on anyone but themselves except occasionally needing some DPS to pass savage DPS checks

Put yourself in our shoes. The tank role is so omnipresent in the game as being the most important and babied role in all content and it gets frustrating, especially when tank mains like you come in and go “nah I don’t see a problem”

[MikoRemi]

Dungeons aren't hardcore, but there is a difference between easy and AFK which is why dungeon difficulty was requested in DT. Dungeons also span levels 15-100 instead of a handful of level 90 duties.


I haven't forgotten at all. Healer DPS uptime is 100% with all tanks as I've said before. WAR has nothing to do with DPS, it removes the need to heal, that's the problem.


I did and came here to discuss it. Dungeons are better when the tank isn't WAR, and even if the other problems with dungeons were addressed it would still leave WAR overpowered. If your solution to that is Criterion, we need that to a level 100 option at the minimum. And if I have to go into dungeons at all, it would be nice if they didn't feel like a chore.

I mean if you want dungeon difficulty, there's variant and criterion. More is coming too, please look forward to it.

Removes the need to heal some of the time, not all of the time. Please learn the difference.

That's your opinion, WAR makes dungeons more smooth however, that's certainly a fact, and that's not a bad thing. If you hate it so much, find a DRK and bring them along as much as you want. WAR I'll consider overpowered if anyone can take WAR into the higher tiered content which the game is more balanced around and do it healerless, I can assure you even with WAR, people have issues. You can loop like others if you want though, it'll be just as much of a discussion as it was back in EW, amounted to even more self sustain~.

[MikoRemi]

Snip

Ok, people can get smooth sailing through one part of the game if the WAR is paying attention. Oh no.

Yeah and if people complain about savage clears without healers, that's not something that happens generally which I've said repeatedly but then people like you don't seem to understand that. If the general DF and PF situation locks out healers on the daily, that's a problem. Literally any tank that isn't DRK with a brain can help themselves to a certain extent, but of course the higher content demands more which is where the healers come into play. Sounds a lot like you refuse to accept the obvious answer that's been repeated over and over, which is basically this whole thread in a nutshell.

The DPS matters in making the runs nice and swift, don't talk to me about that when I can see Heroes Gauntlet runs taking 36 minutes because both DPS are terrible and the healer is asleep, I can live through my own actions but if I was a DRK? Man, that'd be yikes. Good thing I'm not held hostage like that.

I've played every role, but my personality is tank personality. Taking charge and helping people not die. To say no other role matters just shows how little you value DPS and only hyperfocus on tanks when they do their job.

I've played me some bad roles like MCH and RDM. Even when I wanted to fix them I never wanted to fix them at anyone else's expense, but when I wasn't having fun I checked elsewhere. Not to mention the game is not going to go that direction so regardless of anyone's feelings on the matter, self sustain is here to stay. I'll hope that healers and the not so great jobs get their rework, but if Pictomancer can remain where it is without getting nerfed despite a few people expecting it so that the other casters go up closer to its level, tanks aren't going anywhere. Stay mad or do something more productive, I'd recommend the latter personally. Healers just like every role is necessary for content, just because casual content can be done easily is a big nonissue. Go healerless in general PF with extremes or criterion or savage or ultimate, and tell me how that goes for you. Same thing I ask everyone but nobody wants to try it. It's almost like the general public have issues with content as is with a normal comp that trying a special comp would be a nightmare. Believe it or not.

[Zairava]

I mean if you want dungeon difficulty, there's variant and criterion. More is coming too, please look forward to it.

Removes the need to heal some of the time, not all of the time. Please learn the difference.

That's your opinion, WAR makes dungeons more smooth however, that's certainly a fact, and that's not a bad thing. If you hate it so much, find a DRK and bring them along as much as you want. WAR I'll consider overpowered if anyone can take WAR into the higher tiered content which the game is more balanced around and do it healerless, I can assure you even with WAR, people have issues. You can loop like others if you want though, it'll be just as much of a discussion as it was back in EW, amounted to even more self sustain~.

Do you live under a rock? M4S was cleared without a healer in week 2 and the thread has existed on it since roughly the same time lmao