Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Nezerius]

It's the same mentality with trying to nerf Warrior countless times despite how it hasn't been working at all for years. Nerfing is easy and requires no brainpower or effort, see something good? Hit it with the hammer, it's totally not going to just make everything unfun if not cause problems in the future.

The way I'm interpreting the OP, is that it's more of a rhetorical question, rather than a mentality of "nerf everything fun!". It's to put tanks into the healers' shoes, and if the hypothetical situation would affect how much fun they'd be having. Your almost instant "no" answer makes it all the more obvious that tanks would not enjoy having their dps output swapped with the healers.

While you've mentioned that making adjustments to one role at the expense of another isn't the right the thing do, that's essentially what they've been doing with tanks. The increasing amount of self-sustain & party-wide system given to tanks directly impacts the amount of sustain that would otherwise have been provided by the healers. To add an example to this: earlier expansions had people challenge themselves by only bringing 1 healer, and getting the most out of the party-wide sustain provided by said healer. Fast-forward a few expansion, and tanks have gotten to the point of providing this type of sustain to the point of being able to replace that 1 healer with either another tank or another dps.

You're pointing out the "poisoning of the well post that just screams "I'm out of ideas, someone else give me an idea" ", but don't seem to realise that healers have been fighting for role improvements for several expansions. If tanks were in a similar situation, I'm sure you'd eventually start running out of ideas too. And to drive this point home, I'll refer to Supersnow845's signature. That's no exaggeration, it perfectly sums up how healers have been handled over the past 5-6 years, and telling them that 8.0 will be shaking things up will likely make at least half of the healers roll their eyes. They've heard the "wait for the next expansion" way too often.

[Aravell]

I personally don't think tanks should lose all agency, no. Because playing a role that only exist to take hits with no ability to help your team is also not fun, I get that. But let's be real for a moment, the fact that the dev team refuses to raise healing requirements while also raising tank and DPS access to completely free party healing means that they are factually stepping on the healer's toes, no ifs or buts, this is the reality.

That said, I don't think tanks should entirely lose their support, they could gain abilities that do other supportive things that are more tank-flavored, like damage redirects, targeted barriers, field buff effects etc. And if a tank is given the ability to refill HP bars, it should cost them, like Clemency. That way, the tanks can still have agency in helping the party while also not stepping on the toes of the role that's only there to refill HP bars.

As for damage done, as long as tanks can do their main role without an expected damage loss, they should do less damage than a healer. Because a healer is expected to take a loss during progression, so the damage output between both would end up roughly equal.

[Supersnow845]

I have no idea why the tanks arbitrarily do 30% more damage than the healers when it’s entirely feasible the tank will get their best parse ever on their first clear because they functionally never have to optimise their damage because tank is designed as a melee a class with no positionals with inbuilt 100% uptime

The damage balance they had in ShB where on your average first clear or PF reclear the tank would out damage the healer while organised statics could push it he healer 5-10% higher than as perfect. Now the best healer on the strongest healer class is still 15% weaker than the worst tank on the worst tank class for literally zero reason

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

I'm only a former tank main because I got tired of being an indestructible murder ball,

Damage output isn’t really the problem, tanks operate in parties most of the time and are valued for absorbing damage more than dealing it, it's the egregious sustain that's a problem, not only rendering healers obsolete but the tank doesn't even need to properly cycle mit or respect mechanics, why dodge orange puddle when I have 900 cure potency on a 25s CD?

[Oizen]

Currently no I do not think its a good idea.
Tanks currently invest a lot of their level up skills into attack skills. Healers do not do this.
I think it feel really bad playing a job like GNB and having your maximum output be the least amount of damage in the game.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Tank sustain is by far not the most "egregious" of tank's balance issues, it's a small part of it the actual Mitigation value tanks has is more of a issue.

Holy Sheltron Shouldn't I find it odd how you think cooldowns can't have "additional effects" such as a Mit + Regen (which is something healers have but AOE), It's a 250 potency regen for 12s, it's also from a tank it's actual overall healing is 1000 potency, which is around 700 potency if it was on a healer because healers have a passive healing bonus, I really fail to see how this regen is problematic in the first place, the actual issue with paladins self healing is the Req + Divine might healing, which is passively tied to your rotation where you have zero choice or interaction with it, that's a case where self healing should be removed. while clemency is nice it's something you barely even get to use as a Paladin I actually went to feel like some of my healing is y'know contributing or doing something, rather then "oh no can't press this healer will get mad".

if you took away all of paladins self healing other then Holy sheltron, are we really going to argue that Paladins sustain would still be a issue? it would honestly be pretty on par with Dark knight at that point because DRK has rotational healing I guess dark knight likely has too much self healing because all self healing is bad outside of clemency lol. I'm sorry but most people would find a "just a short mitigation" tool boring to have so you have to be somewhat realistic and accept that people do want some cooldowns with sustain.

I don't think healers "want" to take tanks fun I don't think tanks want to take healers fun. theirs always going to be a argument with tanks and healers clashing because they're support roles that heavily are meant to play into each other and meant to have synergy, ff14 has lost some of that synergy because of absurd tank power creep, but it's not because "lol a tank can self heal" .

My point is instead of just hyper fixating on one thing which is "tank sustain" lets actually look at lowering everything down on tanks instead of just removing sustain to make healers feel slightly better for some reason.

I want, big power creep reductions on tanks, but that doesn't mean you have to remove what people like about them, which what I like about paladin is being that holy knight tank with some supportive tools that includes a bit of healing from HS or intervention.

As a side note I'd actually like it if tank jobs had a "defensive gauge" sort of thing where you had your cooldowns tied to it, things like veil being tied to holy sheltron in gauge would be interesting because you'd have to use your kit more wisely, rather then just having a bunch of random cooldowns that do the same thing at different levels and timers.

[Supersnow845]

I’m not sure how you can just dismiss a 700 healer potency heal on a 25 second CD as “oh it’s not that strong CD’s should have extra effects”. That is a mammoth amount of healing for a class that’s not a healer and it costs you absolutely nothing. That’s the thing, I truly don’t think you understand how much healing you are just offhand dismissing as “oh not that much”. You are rivalling the healers gauge restricted healing in total HPS which they have to share with their AOE heals. At best a healer can provide a tank a 15% mitigation that’s also on a 1 minute CD and has no additional effects, a tank can provide anyone with a 700 potency regen (or if you are a WAR you can just give out healing for free and still heal yourself with exactly the same healing)

I’m not opposed to removing all tank healing but I guess if you think the amount of healing holy Shelton provides is “not much” and any reduction is tantamount to removal then yeah I guess I do want all healing removed

Tank mitigation is far less of an issue simply because tanks have inbuilt 80% defence compared to the other roles so they functionally fulfil the mitigation part of their job simply by existing which makes the egregious part the healing they provide. I’ll again return to a comment I made to you a little while ago. Right now you’ll probably think “yeah I’ll take a nerf to tanks inbuilt tankiness if it means I don’t lose healing on HS” which would be fine………except I’ve had discussions with people that don’t want any reduction to tanks inherent tankiness because they see that as a nerf. This circles back to the point i made in that post that every person who takes the “don’t target tanks to affect healers” has a different idea on what they personally would give up from the current tank design (or refuse to give up anything) and all think I’m the stupid one for not immediately seeing that their personal idea of what’s allowed to be sacrificed is the obvious one

[Rithy255]

Snip

I don't think 700 potency is a "Mammoth" amount of healing, it's like 1/4th of your health bar on tanks, Healers have way more healing tools then just one 700 potency cooldown tied to a mitigation, Even a white mage Lilly is gained faster then that, ontop of having serval other cooldowns, they also "cost you nothing".

The issue is when tanks have not just that one form of sustain tied to their short mit or one healing cooldown, it's when they have tons of random self healing ontop of that Warrior is a example where literally every defensive cooldown has some form of healing attached to it, which is Poorly designed in my opinion, I don't mind skills like equilibrium, but it doesn't need a regen & a heal, it doesn't need a 40% mit with a regen that's 400 potency, Bloodwhetting is insane, nascent being able to heal both targets is insane.

No ones going to be 100% happy with changes, I think we have to agree that tanks (and healer's) have to change in some degree, but I don't think they should just remove sustain, I think it would make people a lot more upset then adjusting down some general power levels, but at the end of the day you can't make everyone happy with balance changes, even people like healer players some do not want their role changed funnily enough, when i think it's in the most needed of changing out of all three roles, with tank following it closely.

[Bobby66]

The way I'm interpreting the OP, is that it's more of a rhetorical question, rather than a mentality of "nerf everything fun!". It's to put tanks into the healers' shoes, and if the hypothetical situation would affect how much fun they'd be having. Your almost instant "no" answer makes it all the more obvious that tanks would not enjoy having their dps output swapped with the healers.

While you've mentioned that making adjustments to one role at the expense of another isn't the right the thing do, that's essentially what they've been doing with tanks. The increasing amount of self-sustain & party-wide system given to tanks directly impacts the amount of sustain that would otherwise have been provided by the healers. To add an example to this: earlier expansions had people challenge themselves by only bringing 1 healer, and getting the most out of the party-wide sustain provided by said healer. Fast-forward a few expansion, and tanks have gotten to the point of providing this type of sustain to the point of being able to replace that 1 healer with either another tank or another dps.

You're pointing out the "poisoning of the well post that just screams "I'm out of ideas, someone else give me an idea" ", but don't seem to realise that healers have been fighting for role improvements for several expansions. If tanks were in a similar situation, I'm sure you'd eventually start running out of ideas too. And to drive this point home, I'll refer to Supersnow845's signature. That's no exaggeration, it perfectly sums up how healers have been handled over the past 5-6 years, and telling them that 8.0 will be shaking things up will likely make at least half of the healers roll their eyes. They've heard the "wait for the next expansion" way too often.

End of the day you are right I made this post because yes many did make a claim that tanks should do less damage than healers, and while I personally have no issue with it I did make the claim that I do not think that would go over well with tanks, but at the same time I acknowledge something has to give and the current status quo cannot be maintained so yes I posed the question to tanks since I was curious how tank players would respond.

It's the same mentality with trying to nerf Warrior countless times despite how it hasn't been working at all for years. Nerfing is easy and requires no brainpower or effort, see something good? Hit it with the hammer, it's totally not going to just make everything unfun if not cause problems in the future.

Pretty sure if Healers were called Support there wouldn't be as big of a deal, but much like Tanks are blue DPS, Healers are green DPS since DPS is god in FF14. You can't really convince these people though, and they'll just have to be met with disappointment when this terrible idea isn't implemented, just like tanks in general got even more sustain options in DT in general.

I will say though, I hope DRK players and Healers get some love, but with the ideas both sides spew out(nerfing everything fun when SE very rarely nerfs jobs), I'm not surprised there's little traction there.

I mean the heart of the question is would you be fine if tanks were replaced for speed kills? On paper I bet you will say yes because the idea of replacing a tank in FFXIV is not really possible. That is a part of the issue healers currently face and I do agree on paper it is silly that at the very least for a small subset that the ideal comp is one that does not have a healer role because tanks and dps have enough sustain to meet the healing requirements. I mean I think we can all agree that is a tad silly when you take a moment to think about it no? As others have said if healer and tank damage was swapped tanks would still have a place in speed kills as would healers. It is an overall win no?

[MikoRemi]

I mean the heart of the question is would you be fine if tanks were replaced for speed kills? On paper I bet you will say yes because the idea of replacing a tank in FFXIV is not really possible. That is a part of the issue healers currently face and I do agree on paper it is silly that at the very least for a small subset that the ideal comp is one that does not have a healer role because tanks and dps have enough sustain to meet the healing requirements. I mean I think we can all agree that is a tad silly when you take a moment to think about it no? As others have said if healer and tank damage was swapped tanks would still have a place in speed kills as would healers. It is an overall win no?

First of all, you're looking at such a minor subset of the community doing healerless clears, when that's not what DF and PF do as standard. Why isn't it a problem that all DPS basically can't clear then if this is such an issue? Why isn't it more celebrated that there's an all healer can clear ARR thing if that's the case? Why is it that in order to even do a healerless clear, we need specific setups of certain tanks and dps to basically pseudo mimic healers as a fun challenge which as I've set, is a very minor subset of the community. You'd have some grounds if it was the standard in all parties commonly, just like PLD and MNK in HW were utterly doomed.

Secondly, spare me the rhetoric. It's a question that hardly matters in the grand scheme of things, because if were going by SE's design as is, they'd more than likely buff the damage of healers rather than swap them, but while tanks have an actual rotation and healers don't, that's part of why the rotation is there. Would it be great for healers to have more buttons? Sure, that would be a much better thing to bring up than trying to nerf people which SE very rarely do, and usually it's something very minor anyway, hello RPR's Arcane Crest.

Nothing good comes with trying to screw over other jobs as such. Blame SE for not making healing as fun as it could be, but don't ruin other peoples fun. If you don't like healers not being included in very super specific instances, join a party that...likes having healers? Which is the majority of the playerbase?

You can try to tell me all you want that tanks are ruining healers fun, I can disagree with how many healers prefer having me around over your local DRK. If you wanna keep asking that question though then I guess keep going? Time better used elsewhere really, but if you think you'll get further than the people in EW who tried to beg for self sustain nerfs for a long time, look how it is in DT and ask if maybe you should pursue another avenue instead of something that goes counter to SE's design.