M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[localareanetwork]

Who cares if it’s a fight design problem or a job design problem because the problem presents itself all the same

Bump auto damage up 50% or nerf tank sustain 50% the result is the same

Regardless of the root of the problem or the resolution to the problem the problem exists and it’s getting worse every expansion

It matters because if M4S was designed similarly to any previous savage then this thread wouldn't exist. It is purely a fight design problem this time. That is not to say healers need something regardless, though.

[Aravell]

It matters because if M4S was designed similarly to any previous savage then this thread wouldn't exist. It is purely a fight design problem this time. That is not to say healers need something regardless, though.

It's not a fight design problem alone. If you give the same kit we have now to us back in EW, P4S can also be cleared with no healer.

It's a compounded problem of both fights being too mitigation-focused and the tank/DPS kits being filled with healing that they don't need.

[Supersnow845]

It matters because if M4S was designed similarly to any previous savage then this thread wouldn't exist. It is purely a fight design problem this time. That is not to say healers need something regardless, though.

I mean this has been done with TOP, P9S, P1S and P2S I believe. M1S has also been cleared with 8 tanks

If it’s a fight design problem then it’s fight design that’s been around since late ShB. Regardless. Job design or fight design the problem still exists. Tuning up M4S’s damage by say……10% might make this particular clear impossible but we will just go through this same song and dance again next tier. With more gear I could also see heallerless clears of 2 becoming possible, it seems like only 3 is safe

[ForsakenRoe]

I mean this has been done with TOP, P9S, P1S and P2S I believe. M1S has also been cleared with 8 tanks

E4S was also cleared with no healers. I am pretty sure P12S got cleared with no healers too, but I'm struggling to find a video (only a load of various reddit comments saying 'it happened').

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

[Maltothoris]

E4S was also cleared with no healers. I am pretty sure P12S got cleared with no healers too, but I'm struggling to find a video (only a load of various reddit comments saying 'it happened').

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKYa3K70ek Here is the p12s clear with no healers. My one point of contention on the e4s clear was this was in 5.1.

Edit: Looking back at it the change to the phoenix healing was by changing the duration of everlasting flight from 20 to 21 seconds so the healing only went up by 100 from 600 to 700.

[Striker44]

If this is truly a 'fight design' problem, it's kind of a damning indictment of SE's direction that it keeps happening in all these different fights. More likely, is the thing that is the constant between each of these clears: The jobs themselves, and their design direction. As they say, 'if everywhere you go, you can smell sh#t, the first thing to do is check your shoes'

Fortunately, the "if" part of that scenario isn't an issue. All we have here is what exists in practically every game that has ever existed, which is a select few highly skilled players able to accomplish things that 999 out of 1000 others won't be able to do. We don't say the original "Super Mario Bros.", one of the most famous games of all time, is horribly designed because a small group of people has managed to speedrun in it about 5 minutes. What it's really provided is hours upon hours of enjoyment for millions of people. Same deal here. When you can start grabbing random DF parties, throwing them into M4S (or any of the current tier Savage fights) without a healer, and seeing them reliably clear it, then there's a real issue. But what top-tier players who have been playing the game for a long time and have expert coordination are able to do is irrelevant other than to congratulate them on accomplishing something.

How anyone can have any fun with the current 'mash one button for half your playtime' design of healers? I'll never know.

Because most players aren't doing M4S with skilled groups. The typical player is doing normal content with random other typical players, who take a good deal of unnecessary damage, don't perform optimally to clear things fast or use mitigation in the right places, don't use self-sustain or the ability to heal others on certain non-healer classes, etc.. Some people also just like being the one to make other people's health bars go up, and have no issue with spamming a spell as filler in the interim. Step 1 is acknowledging that other people can fact enjoy things that you personally don't.

[Supersnow845]

Fortunately, the "if" part of that scenario isn't an issue. All we have here is what exists in practically every game that has ever existed, which is a select few highly skilled players able to accomplish things that 999 out of 1000 others won't be able to do. We don't say the original "Super Mario Bros.", one of the most famous games of all time, is horribly designed because a small group of people has managed to speedrun in it about 5 minutes. What it's really provided is hours upon hours of enjoyment for millions of people. Same deal here. When you can start grabbing random DF parties, throwing them into M4S (or any of the current tier Savage fights) without a healer, and seeing them reliably clear it, then there's a real issue. But what top-tier players who have been playing the game for a long time and have expert coordination are able to do is irrelevant other than to congratulate them on accomplishing something.



Because most players aren't doing M4S with skilled groups. The typical player is doing normal content with random other typical players, who take a good deal of unnecessary damage, don't perform optimally to clear things fast or use mitigation in the right places, don't use self-sustain or the ability to heal others on certain non-healer classes, etc.. Some people also just like being the one to make other people's health bars go up, and have no issue with spamming a spell as filler in the interim. Step 1 is acknowledging that other people can fact enjoy things that you personally don't.

Okay what’s your excuse for EX1 and Ex2 being cleared as current content with random pick up groups of 8 tanks

Does that not fulfil your criteria of “random groups can do hard content without healers without even really trying”