M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Ishe-P]

Trying to riff healers is the most FF thing that's been an FF thing since FF1. I'm not exactly sure why folks are surprised. If you could figure out a comp that works without, say, a white mage, you'd do it too, and don't try to deny that you wouldn't.

[Aravell]

The main issue with this happening is that it's more optimal and not even more dangerous despite not having a healer, as long as everyone follows the mitigation spreadsheet to the letter.

No healer runs have been happening since ARR, this is true. But no healer runs back then were actual challenge runs, it wasn't easy and it was much slower than a regular comp run.

But after EW (and ShB, to a lesser extent), it became optimal to just drop the healer entirely, because it ends up being not anymore dangerous than normal and it's also a faster clear.

Healers right now are the worst in damage output, so if the extra healing power gained from bringing one isn't even needed, then healers are just worthless. One entire role being completely worthless as anything except safety insurance is extremely bad trinity design.

[Silver-Strider]

The main issue with this happening is that it's more optimal and not even more dangerous despite not having a healer, as long as everyone follows the mitigation spreadsheet to the letter.

No healer runs have been happening since ARR, this is true. But no healer runs back then were actual challenge runs, it wasn't easy and it was much slower than a regular comp run.

But after EW (and ShB, to a lesser extent), it became optimal to just drop the healer entirely, because it ends up being not anymore dangerous than normal and it's also a faster clear.

Healers right now are the worst in damage output, so if the extra healing power gained from bringing one isn't even needed, then healers are just worthless. One entire role being completely worthless as anything except safety insurance is extremely bad trinity design.

There was also the fact that Healers used to do way more damage back then too, doing more than Tanks most of the time since the bulk of Healer damage back then was from DoTs.

[localareanetwork]

After watching the video no I don't really actually think it is that hard, people just don't realize how easy it actually is and don't bother trying to go off meta. I feel like I can list 100 reasons why but I will keep it kinda concise why I think this is true:

-They had minimal clemency casts and the casts they did do were during downtime anyways where it cost them absolutely 0 dps. The bar for healing is so low that it's possible to hardly even need direct healing from gcds. Without a healer.

-It was week 2, and they weren't fully geared. More room for error in the coming weeks will only make this easier to pull off.

-The only actual "cheese" or workaround they really had to figure out was the cover strat to bypass having to use tank LB3, but this isn't actually even hard to pull off anyways. I mean you're just throwing cover on a pre-assigned person as an alternative. Everything else in the fight is literally playing out the same as it normally would.

-They spreadsheeted mit. That's it. Tons of people do this, and expect it, on a regular basis in savage and ultimate anyways. All a healerless run does at best is somewhat amplify the strictness of mit usage. Spreadsheet it. Problem solved.

So please enlighten me on why this is so hard to actually pull off, because nothing stands out as extremely difficult. What is the crazy stunt they pulled that makes this seem egregiously harder than just... A regular clear of m4s in a coordinated group environment, with moderately stricter mit checks and having to press cover once instead of lb3 once?

I think if more people actually tried a healerless run in the first place it would be quite apparent how many of them are actually more than capable of doing it very easily. I guess my biggest question though is why you think it's okay for it to even be possible to clear fresh high-end content while undergeared, without a healer present. Should it even be possible to clear high-end content without an entire ROLE present? Like seriously? It's not alarming that a role is so useless that, even in the difficult content, they fail to justify a NECESSITY for it in any way?

Again, it is a fight design problem. There's a reason this was never done in previous savages this early. I think healers should be better too but people are really overblowing the CLASS problem with this specific case and not actually talking enough about how silly the design of this fight is.

[Supersnow845]

Again, it is a fight design problem. There's a reason this was never done in previous savages this early.

Who cares if it’s a fight design problem or a job design problem because the problem presents itself all the same

Bump auto damage up 50% or nerf tank sustain 50% the result is the same

Regardless of the root of the problem or the resolution to the problem the problem exists and it’s getting worse every expansion

[localareanetwork]

Who cares if it’s a fight design problem or a job design problem because the problem presents itself all the same

Bump auto damage up 50% or nerf tank sustain 50% the result is the same

Regardless of the root of the problem or the resolution to the problem the problem exists and it’s getting worse every expansion

It matters because if M4S was designed similarly to any previous savage then this thread wouldn't exist. It is purely a fight design problem this time. That is not to say healers need something regardless, though.

[Aravell]

It matters because if M4S was designed similarly to any previous savage then this thread wouldn't exist. It is purely a fight design problem this time. That is not to say healers need something regardless, though.

It's not a fight design problem alone. If you give the same kit we have now to us back in EW, P4S can also be cleared with no healer.

It's a compounded problem of both fights being too mitigation-focused and the tank/DPS kits being filled with healing that they don't need.

[Supersnow845]

It matters because if M4S was designed similarly to any previous savage then this thread wouldn't exist. It is purely a fight design problem this time. That is not to say healers need something regardless, though.

I mean this has been done with TOP, P9S, P1S and P2S I believe. M1S has also been cleared with 8 tanks

If it’s a fight design problem then it’s fight design that’s been around since late ShB. Regardless. Job design or fight design the problem still exists. Tuning up M4S’s damage by say……10% might make this particular clear impossible but we will just go through this same song and dance again next tier. With more gear I could also see heallerless clears of 2 becoming possible, it seems like only 3 is safe

[Kacho_Nacho]

As an old Hpal healer back in WoW. Low key the idea of being a main healer is a pld is awesome and I would 100% be down to try it.

I'm a WoW refugee too! Played a holy priest for years.

When I came to FFXIV back in 2.0, I was surprised paladins were not a healer/tank hybrid because you had to level gladiator and white mage to unlock it.

[Somnolence]

Bump auto damage up 50% or nerf tank sustain 50% the result is the same

How about you do savage instead of spewing ignorant nonsense. Bosses chunk tanks with 30k autos. With 60k they will get 3-shot.

More casual healers being overwhelmed by mechs already let tanks die to them.

If you increase them more, healers will be forced to cure-bot. Because you would need 40-60k HPS to counteract autos and lilies etc. are too weak potency/GCD to keep up.

You believe this will incentivize more people to play healers?