Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[CantDecide]

THE NOSE

I would like the original, more balanced nose shape restored. The new nostrils are too wide and flared, and the bridge is too pinched in. In the character creator it looks blobby, and in-game it looks conical. But in both cases, it is more wedged and less elegant.

If you can't tell, I really like IkaRR's pictures.

THE LIPS

1. Shape. The philtrum used to be wide and shallow, so it caught less light and made for a more distinctive cupid's bow. The lower lip was shapely and slightly more pursed, and the outer corners more defined and upturned. The separation between the lips also rested lower and looked more natural. Now the lower lip hangs heavily under the pinched and deflated upper lip. I think the old traits made them both more unique and better proportioned.

I really like solbianca's comparison, and all three of her feedback posts on the JP forum are excellent.

2. Texture. The lips seem more faint and blurry in-game than before, and there is a red undertone that shows through even the darkest blue lipstick option. It would be nice if this was fixed.

There is also a sharp angle just below the lower lip that catches light and creates a harsh line. This should be softened in a way that doesn't detract from the shading, lest the chin appear bigger.




THE FACE AS A WHOLE

The eyes definitely need the most work, hence why they have all of Part 1 to themselves. However, everything I've mentioned has added up and completely changed the face as a whole, to the extent it is no longer faithful to the original like we were lead to believe the update would be. I've said it before, but I really don't like the more rounded down and neotenous style. I think it looks too generic, and a lot of charm and nuance has been lost.


I feel this gif by lira_m does an excellent job showing how the face has been stripped of its essence:

And noumen0nn made a good edit of what restoring some of the original features could look like:

Below, I have edited a screenshot of my character's new face in order to more closely mimic this shading, as well as other morph edits to make her facial features match her old face more closely.

(2/3)

[CantDecide]

THE BODY

1. Texture. As has occured in other races, the midlander model now has a noticeable discrepancy between the updated parts and the rest of the body. The skintone on her hands and face is a different shade, to the extent it looks a bit like she got sunburned while wearing a turtleneck. You can see the seams on her neck and wrists where the updated parts meet the old body.

2. Lighting and Geometry. The lighting clearly falls differently between the two, as well. It is especially obvious when running without full armour that a new head was transplanted on a body it wasn't meant for, and it looks really uncanny. The softened lighting along her jawline makes her head look too small relative to her neck and body. Reminds me a bit of how swapping heads on dolls can look.




CLOSING THOUGHTS

I've since fantasia'd to face 2. I really like how the eyes of that face turned out compared to face 1, and would be sad to see them changed. So I also sympathize with all the people here who like the update and don't want to lose the new changes. However, I would also hate for my enjoyment of them to be at the expense of any face 2s who might be mourning like I'm mourning face 1's eyes, so I'd like to repeat that I really want to see the new features added as options alongside any restorations. That way both can coexist in the game and the most people possible can be happy. :}

(3/3)

[CantDecide]

LIST OF DISSATISFIED FACE 1s

Here I'm just going to compile a list of all the less than satisfied face 1s I've come across, to boost visibility and gather them in one place. Apologies if I've missed anyone. I'll try to keep it updated until I get bored or run out of space.

• ikaRR on the JP forum
• solbianca on the JP forum (1, 2, 3)
• noumen0nn (1, 2, 3, 4)
• LlymlaenGreene
• aiqa
• Yenrz
• Thundertron
• NoxLuminos (1, 2)
• Araxes' Wife
• Trifecta739
• HawkeScream
• SugaryMiraa (1, 2)
• VessLynn
• Mercelia
• Verschlafen
• Siy
• Jihos
• Verdelot
• Ostheim89 and Pigeoms
• Gredunza
• lira_m
• Avisse
• Router and Kaziek
• MaiSuu
• Louhikko
• 1313
• MagicMush00
  

[CantDecide]

<reserved just in case I need to add more in the future>

[ConantSivrha]

(snip)

Thank you for bringing this up again. I agree with you. (I’ve also been considering making my own post on the subject, but, unfortunately, the video I took of a few expressions before the update isn’t very good, because I was ignorant of some basic functions of gpose at the time, such as zooming in farther than what is possible with just the mouse wheel, or changing the expression within gpose instead of exiting and re-entering gpose every time I wanted to change it.)

After the update, some expressions—especially smiles—just don’t look right. In my opinion, the most obvious problem is that the corners of the mouth mainly point up instead of being pulled up and to the sides when smiling.

I’ve mentioned that the mouth I use on my main (male miqo’te face 1 mouth 4) is significantly wider now than it was before the update. However, when smiling, it isn’t pulled wider in the way that a mouth should be; instead, the corners just move up vertically while remaining at the same or similar position horizontally, which isn’t really something you’d see in real life. I worry that if the mouth is changed to be closer to its original size (which I do want…in theory) the new expressions will become even more unnatural (which I do not want).

Additionally, the surprised-looking expression that the WoL sometimes makes in cutscenes (I think it’s /amazed /awe) looks very odd on my character (the face 1 male miqo’te) after the update. The eyes look larger than what should be reasonably possible, and the expression comes off more like helpless terror than amazement or surprise. In the past, it looked less cartoonish/exaggerated than it does currently, which I felt looked more natural on the face, and also seemed more fitting for the subdued personality generally shown by the WoL in cutscenes.

[oWither]

My male Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te eyebrows look really crushed in some expressions and cutscenes. Eyebrows are thinner overall than they used to be in pre-7.0 even in neutral. Every other change I have gotten used to.

(open images in new tab for comparison)

Character info:
Male Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te
Face: Type 4
Eye shape: Type 3
Eyebrows: Type 4
Facial Features: None

[TheDustyOne]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree that the expressions are too mild now. I think they're they opposite - they're way too exaggerated now.

<snip>

This is something that really needs to be talked about more because it was something I noticed even in the benchmark, but couldn't put my finger on what was wrong when I saw my character smile. At the time I just chalked it up to the face changes, but no, I believe they also reanimated the expressions entirely for the new head models (there are new bones in the face as far as I know) and the end result ends up looking uncanny. Maybe I should look through my older screenshots and compare, but something about my characters current /beam, /smile, and /simper is massively off.

[Rueby]

This is something that really needs to be talked about more because it was something I noticed even in the benchmark, but couldn't put my finger on what was wrong when I saw my character smile. At the time I just chalked it up to the face changes, but no, I believe they also reanimated the expressions entirely for the new head models (there are new bones in the face as far as I know) and the end result ends up looking uncanny. Maybe I should look through my older screenshots and compare, but something about my characters current /beam, /smile, and /simper is massively off.

Expressions in their current form look really uncanny. Especially smile. Alot of character have this really unhinged upturned corners of the lips. This isn't a cute/subtle smile. Mouths and muscles don't work that way. It's so strange how 10 year old facial animations were way better and more expressive than this. I feel like for expressions everything got dialed up to 11.

[Argantaelle]

I'm slowly crawling through MSQ (I have lots of story to catch up on before I can reach DT). I know that most of the main NPC hasn't been updated yet (so I can enjoy vanilla Thancred's face, praise the Twelve), but NPC who share player characters's models are very noticeable.

This picture, imo, demonstrates the problems with the character update:



1. Lifeless flat hair without any kind of natural hair gloss.

2. The swollen cheeks of the Elezen girl in the background.

3. When a character smiles, too often their eyes turn into extremely narrow slits (combined with swollen cheeks, it creates a very interesting expression; that was not the initial intention of SE designers, at least I hope so).

4. I also noticed that light and shadows interact with a character's face in a weird way—both cheekbones and philtrum compose a brightly lit triangle, which looks unnatural. Not all faces are affected (it seems like most of the characters suffering from this issue are girls).

(more examples)

5. Also a common issue with smiles: only the lip corners are trying to create the smiling impression by being pulled up; the middle part of the lips isn't affected in any way. It looks very unnatural, and the wider the mouth is, the worse the smile looks. Maybe that's the real reason for the remodelling of all mouths, haha.
I can't say that the situation with smiles was ideal before DT; SE couldn't make a wider mouth look natural when smiling (I know it very well, because my character had the 2nd mouth type). But now it got worse; even standard-type mouths look uncanny.

6. Some eyes turned into flat, lifeless objects, like Miqote's eyes in the screenshot.

Minfilia's eyes also became lovely grey pebbles.

Kan-E-Senna, what has happened with your forehead?!

[MagicMush00]

LIST OF DISSATISFIED FACE 1s

Here I'm just going to compile a list of all the less than satisfied face 1s I've come across, to boost visibility and gather them in one place. Apologies if I've missed anyone. I'll try to keep it updated until I get bored or run out of space.

• ikaRR on the JP forum
• solbianca on the JP forum (1, 2, 3)
• noumen0nn (1, 2, 3)
• LlymlaenGreene
• aiqa
• Yenrz
• Thundertron
• NoxLuminos (1, 2)
• Araxes' Wife
• Trifecta739
• HawkeScream
• SugaryMiraa
• VessLynn
• Mercelia
• Verschlafen
• Siy
• Jihos
• Verdelot
• Ostheim89 and Pigeoms
• Gredunza
• lira_m
• Avisse
• Router and Kaziek
• MaiSuu
• Louhikko
• 1313
  

Thank you for summing up so many different requests for midlander f face 1, another change that's not easy to notice, but really impacts the overall impression under strong light sources from above, is how the middle part of the forehead and upper nose bridge are now more "forward going", they get lit up more than the rest of her face and contribute to the weird looking impression the new face has, before, that area used to be flatter and/or at least didn't react to the lighting as it does now; in addition it also looks like the nose (the part between the eyes) gets wider in the area around the eyes, giving it a weird puffy look that wasn't there before, the whole eye area used to feel more natural and "flat" , but now because of the changes (larger nose base, puffy eyelids, bigger eyebags) it unfortunately looks like she is having an allergic reaction when in certain lighting conditions. One thing i noticed though is how a lot of the problems with these changes are greatly reduced when a light source is either shining direct frontally or from slightly below, and are instead way more noticeable with light sources that shine down from above.