Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Archeron]

Frontlines is never going to be "Good" PvP. It's just a fact we have to accept. The engine this game runs on is terrible, and it holds the entire game back, and it's never going to be fixed.

The goal should be "Good enough" PvP. To me, this means More maps, better job balancing, Better team balancing, better introduction to PvP, clearer map objectives for brain rot players. Give me a reason to queue into Frontlines beyond just a free roulette bonus, or FoMo rewards that require zero skill to attain. I'm doubtful they will make PvP "Good enough" with 7.1 with their track record. But time will tell.

[Aravell]

I am honestly very curious how NA and JP developed so differently when met with the same strat.

We all know how JP was ground zero for the DRK meta strat. But shortly after the meta became widespread, we started getting 4-man WAR premades whose sole purpose is to disrupt the DRK players.

When the DRK meta got to NA, there doesn’t seem to really be any attempt made to counter it, instead people jumped onto the DRK bandwagon for easier wins.

It seems that the end result is that NA Frontlines turned out more miserable than JP Frontlines.

Now, I'm by no means glorifying JP players, I have met some NA players who were fantastic at countering DRK dives. It's just an interesting observation that JP immediately developed counters while NA just added more DRKs.

[Mawlzy]

I am honestly very curious how NA and JP developed so differently when met with the same strat.

We all know how JP was ground zero for the DRK meta strat. But shortly after the meta became widespread, we started getting 4-man WAR premades whose sole purpose is to disrupt the DRK players.

When the DRK meta got to NA, there doesn’t seem to really be any attempt made to counter it, instead people jumped onto the DRK bandwagon for easier wins.

It seems that the end result is that NA Frontlines turned out more miserable than JP Frontlines.

Now, I'm by no means glorifying JP players, I have met some NA players who were fantastic at countering DRK dives. It's just an interesting observation that JP immediately developed counters while NA just added more DRKs.

Isn't it simply that there are enough low-skill/disinterested players in NA that the foxes never run out of rabbits? Or is it more that commanders on JP like the challenge of competing against other commanders, whereas for the most part on NA the premades seem happy to farm weak players for their nosebleed win-rates?

It's also the case that, while many of the pros here tell us how easy it is to counter DRK+ premades, the only recent guide on the "correct" way to play the current meta is based entirely on the DRK+ paradigm. So clearly it's all Olivia's fault. (Kidding, honey.)

I suspect if someone went to the trouble of writing a guide on, say, the quatro-MNK anti-DRK stack it might gain some traction. But it seems the NA Discord community is, for the most part, perfectly happy with the current meta and the easy win-farming it allows, even if it means traveling to Dynamis to unleash its full fury.

It's even possible that if the top third of NA players only played against each other, a JP-like meta featuring interesting counterplay would evolve organically.

[Aravell]

Really? Huh... I just assumed EU and JPN (plus OCE) were just as miserable as we were doing the exact same thing, lol.

Not really. JP and OCE have a very robust Frontlines experience. Commanders die all the time, no one is invincible, it's great fun.

Isn't it simply that there are enough low-skill/disinterested players in NA that the foxes never run out of rabbits? Or is it more that commanders on JP like the challenge of competing against other commanders, whereas for the most part on NA the premades seem happy to farm weak players for their nosebleed win-rates?

Well, I wouldn't presume to speak from authority on why NA Frontlines ended up this way, but it is an interesting observation to be made. How 2 different groups react very differently to the same situation.

I have been getting pretty close matches on Crystal DC lately though.

[AllenThyl]

Well, I wouldn't presume to speak from authority on why NA Frontlines ended up this way, but it is an interesting observation to be made. How 2 different groups react very differently to the same situation.

I can tell you, it's entitlement. It's the natural conclusion of having a PvE game so easy, that even with 60% uptime and wrong rotation, it's possible to clear all normal content. Where improving one's own skill isn't enforced by some difficulty barrier along the way, but is dependent purely on personal motivation for improvement. With a story that casts your character constantly in an overly positive light, able to make friends with nearly everyone at every turn without having to do the actual leg work that is typically involved in fostering relationships. Add the Western, but especially American culture of hyper individualism, where only one's personal enjoyment matters at all, even (or sometimes especially) when it's to the detriments of others.

You can see it in this thread all the time. The author of a PvP guide is a "tyrant", "forcing their playstyle" upon others. The constant baseless insinuation that there isn't a "correct" way to play, which is true, if one doesn't have any kind of quality criteria to apply in the first place. It's the same argument you see when people defend single target DPS in dungeons even at lvl 60+. If you don't care about other people's time, then of course wasting other people's time isn't a misdemeanor. Seeing your teammates get obliterated by 3 people coordinating their burst (they don't even have to be premade, macros aren't rocket science to create)? Well, that's now reason to just be lethargic and not engage with the game itself anymore. Why? Because the game didn't go as this particular individual wanted their game to go (even though they are only 1 out of 72 people in the game). After all, so far, the whole game was solely about them, so why shouldn't the PvP portion of the game now not be about them as well?

I mean, take a really close look at the arguments especially from Mawlzy. They essentially boil down to "people good at this game, shouldn't play like they are good at this game". Why? Well because Mawlzy by own admission isn't really good at this game, and if others are better, that means they aren't the center of the universe anymore. It would mean that there are some things that Mawlzy could learn, that there is room for improvement, that the problem might not lie with someone else, but with Mawlzy. The people constantly complaining about being "oppressed" by premades, never give the impression that they actually have a proper understanding of the strategic intricacies of the game. My personal favorite was the statement that only "commanders" like the new Shatter map, and I would say that's true. Because Shatter is actually the most interesting map from a strategic point of view, allowing very fun and impressive plays to be made. Which you basically never see (I have seen exactly one advanced play being executed by my team in the last 2 years), because the general population of this game simply doesn't have either the knowledge or the skill the realize or execute these strategies. In fact, as you can see in Aidorouge's posts, they often times deliberately don't do something when it gets called out.

[Xylira]

I can tell you, it's entitlement...

Ah yes, the entitlement of wanting to play matches with relatively balanced teams. I guess I sure am feeling an acute sense of entitlement in that regard.

I'm by no means amazing at pvp, but I would say I'm fairly competent. Regardless of how good I play as an individual however, no matter how good I might get, I'm still largely beholden to chance when it comes to Frontlines matches. Why? Because I only ever solo queue for matches. It's entirely up to chance if I end up on a team with other competent players that are willing to coordinate together on specific objectives during the match. That's not even taking all of the RNG nonsense of objective spawns and the whims of one team deciding to throw the match and harass second place, or first and second teams deciding to beat down third place.

Meanwhile premade groups have a distinct edge, being able to queue in groups up to 4. Which in the current PvP design meta, is more than enough players to execute full alliance wipes with the right jobs stacked together and LBing at the same time. That's more than enough to heavily sway the outcome of matches between kill points and battle high snowballing.

I'd much rather SE properly balance Front Lines PvP, but failing that I'd settle for FL being solo queue only. At least with Front Lines being restricted to solo queues it would make it harder to intentionally team stack and abuse meta comps, as well as on average ensure a more even distribution of competent players on each time.

[Mawlzy]

That's the part that gets me the most, that even though premades were a thing on Aether/Primal/Crystal, they were a bearable enough presence all the times I used to DC travel before Dawntrail, especially if you learned when certain ones were queuing. (I've been on and against Olivia's team, would not enjoy repeating either experience.) But once I got locked down on Dynamis, it was just constant one-sided fights as a bunch of the premades from A/P/C not only flooded in, but seemed to be coordinating in such a way to actively avoid each other (can't possibly imagine why).

To me, the most revealing aspect of the current NA premade mindset is that none exhibit any interest in changing the status quo. In other words, perhaps the answer to "why did NA and JP evolve so differently?" is simply "because premades and the Discord lobby like unbalanced matches." The invasion of Dynamis tends to confirm that conclusion.

Olivia has stated she wishes the skill floor was higher on NA, and I believe her. But the only suggestion offered by premade advocates for accomplishing this (in terms of changes SE could implement) is to introduce personal rewards based on K/D/A/Damage. Who would benefit from such a change in the current meta? Right, the premade members hitting 22/0/105. And the nature of matches would, IMO, not change at all.

[Commander_Justitia]

But shortly after the meta became widespread, we started getting 4-man WAR premades whose sole purpose is to disrupt the DRK players.

I am doing that sometimes on paladin... it is insane how much the enemy alliances relies on the drk to lead, so if you stun him and prevent him from mounting up, then having 5s mount up penalty etc. You can keep the whole alliance there for 30s busy or even longer if you play it right as a single player. Just losing 5 points to keep 20 people busy is a net win in my books.

Paladin covering each other is actually pretty op, as both targets take 0 dmg in PvP when they LB (which doesnt work in PvE). With guard coming up in between like 3-4 paladin are basically invincible if they are coordinated going in as duos, then escaping with cover to a far team member. The perfect disruptor class.