The Actual Problem With Dawntrail

[Papayatar]

If you wanted a better example, I'd look at expectation verses execution regarding the opening of the Golden City gate. The writers had set up Krile with the magical USB stick that has the ability to open the gate. The expectation was that she should use the key to open the gate. This is subverted by denying Krile entry and is resolved by having a npc we met only a couple of hours ago being able to unlock the gate. Does it make sense? Yes, on a technical level because of the permissions set up for royal authority access only. Is it impactful? No, it is tonally discordant as the writes spent the entire game telling us that this was important to Krile only to undermine the emotional core by denying her the ability to resolve one of her CORE motivations/plot points.

Krile was done dirty this entire expansion but this moment here was the worst of for all the reasons you said.

Like what’s the point to build it as super important for her story, in addition to any time she asked anyone about it or the Golden City she was gated by “sorry you’re Wuk Lamat’s friend telling you would be unfair unless she wins ;’)”.

They practically teased Krile is gonna have this big moment just you wait, but then no we’re going to deny this important moment for you because you’re not as important as kid we just introduce all of half a second ago.

It was a fancy digital key and they could have easily made up anything that made it so Krile has the authority to open the door. But they didn’t, and now I’m half wondering if the only reason they even made Gulool Ja because they overthought the transfer of authority issue, instead of just making the earring a special master key that only Krile and her parents could use or something.

[Mirikh]

This may or may not be me about the kick a hornet's nest but I'll say it anyway.

I think a lot of players are missing the forest for the trees. Wuk Lamat isn't the problem.

If she wasn't around during most of the scenes where she is then it'd look like she's just sitting on her hands and doing nothing. The first half is her journey to leadership and the second half is how she handles leading......

I think the actual problem is this: Dawntrail is too short. 2.0 had about 160 quests (even more originally) to reintroduce players to Eorzea. 7.0 has only 100, even though we're exploring a whole new landmass and a nation from another shard. That's why these players feel exhausted. Everything is crammed together and there's not enough time to fully explore what the writers want to explore. Wuk Lamat takes the blame for this larger issue because she's the most prominent character.

Dawntrail isn't a bad expansion and the patches might improve it, but Square Enix should be less afraid to make longer expansions. I know a lot of people dislike A Realm Reborn for being tedious, but in the case of Dawntrail I think that kind of length could help.

I've been thinking about how ARR/HW/StB introduced us to Eorzea vs how Dawntrail introduced us to the continent of Tural. I'm not sure DT needed to be longer, since longer doesn't nail down precisely what you or I might have wanted more (or less) of. And I admit to having set myself up in advance by expecting more worldbuilding out of Dawntrail, as that may never have been the intention. Here the character of Wuk Lamat does enter into it for me, since the focus on a MC means less focus on Adventuring, zone exploration, and regional politics. In contrast I liked the world building of ARR better, for example, its willingness to address class difference, racism, xenophobia, political and economic exploitation of refugees. Eorzea has ongoing political and social problems not solved to this day.

There are small towns in Thanalan where people still know your name a decade later because you helped with some small local manifestation of these big problems. Which is how I hoped Dawntrail might lower the stakes while still giving us meaningful experiences in the world. But Dawntrail solved its problems with lighning speed, conflict was reduced to misunderstanding, and differences in world view were solved by lectures about diversity, while doing too little to explore that diversity in depth. I like 14s politics - I want more of it, not less. I'd like more nuanced exploration of the worlds and zones we explore in future. Whether longer or shorter, I couldn't say.

[Silver-Strider]

Come to think of it, I have an addendum to make.
First, I do think another problem is that Dawntrail added characters that really didn't need to be there.

Even if you removed all the Scions, the new characters did not receive any meaningful growth to them and what growth was done is forced. Bakool Ja Ja's redemption is forced because we got all of 1 or 2 lines of dialogue that he's doing what he's doing for his siblings and parents but his actions never come under much scrutiny. Sure, Wuk says that his actions can't be forgiven but then at the end of the MSQ, she's talking about how the Landsguard won't lack for strength because Bakool Ja Ja will now play a similar role that Zarool Ja played for them, so there's 0 consequences for him. Zarool Ja never got any real development at all, going from a stoic Warmonger to a deranged Warmonger with hardly a reason as to why other than a short interlude in his Trial of how he just cracked under the pressure of being this miracle child. It wasn't enough and didn't fully explain his desires or motivations all that well. Koana had some minor growth that felt natural at least but there was so much more they could've done with him as well.

Do you actually think she's a Mary Sue, or are you mad your character isn't the center of attention right now?

Mary Sue. I don't care if my character isn't the narrative focus of the story, so long as the story is compelling and the characters that are taking center stage are people I can root for. Wuk Lamat didn't fill this criteria because she doesn't really have her flaws ever bite her in the ass. Her naivety got her kidnapped by Bakool Ja Ja early on but did it change her character in any way? Not that I noticed because she still seems fine charging recklessly into the fray. The fact that there're so many dialogue "options" that do nothing more than to prop up Wuk as this amazing character that everyone loves just further enforces this notion of her being a Mary Sue.

If you really do think she is, doesn't that mean the WOL also is on an even greater level?

No because of countless examples of us being humbled.

The bloody banquet at the end of ARR
Thordan outplays us immediately after Bismark by taking the key to Azys Lla and again when the Garleans use us to break thru the barrier into Azys Lla for them.
Zenos throughout SB
Emet Selch when we fail to contain the light of the 1st.

We had moments of weakness in our seemingly impenetrable armor of a character. Even against the Endsinger, we had help from the Scions and Zenos to do that. In comparison, Wuk Lamat is just so naturally gifted that she's able to tank blows from Sphene that would've somehow been too dangerous for us to handle and are so inspired by her that we're able to beat Sphene. There isn't even a comparison.

[All_Nonsense]

this. Dawntrail's story was given to a team of writers who only handled small projects before now and obviously didn't know the first thing about writing a whole expansion's worth of story content.

I think this was the biggest faux pas. This shouldn't have been a sandbox for inexperienced writers to try new ideas. This was a $60 expansion with a monthly sub - our expectations were higher because we PAY for it.

[genuine_stranger]

Come to think of it, I have an addendum to make.

First, I do think another problem is that Dawntrail added characters that really didn't need to be there.

Heavensward was able to feel more personal with more of its characters because for a good portion there were only three traveling with us (Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle). Throughout the first half of Dawntrail there are five (Alphinaud, Alisaie, Krile, Erenville, and Wuk Lamat). Alphinaud and Alisaie were with us to learn how they can deal with Garlemald better, but what we learned was pretty much what we knew (understanding the past can help us understand the present). Also, they've already gone through their own character arcs. The writers could've left the twins and there wouldn't really be any consequences.

Second, I have a few questions for the people calling Wuk Lamat a Mary Sue. I didn't want to be too confrontational when I started this thread, but I think these are questions worth asking.

Do you actually think she's a Mary Sue, or are you mad your character isn't the center of attention right now?

If you really do think she is, doesn't that mean the WOL also is on an even greater level?

If she failed harder (which I do think she should've gotten the chance to but I have a feeling why she didn't) would you like her more, or would you say she's even less qualified like what Lyse was accused of?

Firstly, I think it's important to clarify the unique position of the Warrior of Light (WoL) in FFXIV. Unlike traditional characters, the WoL is basically our avatar, through which we experience the game's world and narrative. This avatar is a blank slate, reflecting only the characteristics and decisions we project onto them. This is especially noticeable when the dialogue choices presented don't align with our own envisioned personality for the WoL, which can be a point of contention among players.

Given that the WoL is our direct interface into the story, they inherently can't be a Mary Sue. They don't have a predefined character arc or traits beyond what we impart. Each expansion centers around different characters (e.g., Estinien, Aymeric, Ysayle in Heavensward, Raubahn, Hien, and Lyse in Stormblood), with the WoL serving more as a catalyst or facilitator in their stories rather than the central focus.

As for Wuk Lamat, I just can't get behind her character. Her personality feels all wrong. She's in her 20s (I think?), yet she acts so naive and simple-minded. The whole "sheltered" excuse doesn't work for me—she should know something about the cultures of her subjects, especially if she's in Tulliyolal, their capital. It’s frustrating how poorly written she is, and everything in Dawntrail seems to revolve around her. Even if she had more failures in her journey, the narrative would need a complete overhaul because it’s all about her, leaving no room for other characters to shine. Honestly, Dawntrail might be better off with a rewrite.

Lastly, Lyse would have faced the same criticism if Stormblood had focused on her as much as Dawntrail does on Wuk Lamat. Lyse had her own growth and moments, but Stormblood balanced her story with many other significant characters and plotlines. This made the story richer and more diverse. Dawntrail, on the other hand, is so centered on Wuk Lamat that it overshadows other potentially interesting characters and plotlines. If Dawntrail had spread its focus more evenly, like Stormblood, it might have avoided some of the criticism and delivered a more engaging story.

[Gyson]

I have zero problems with Wuk Lamat and honestly don't understand the negative reactions. I actually like the character.

Really, the only strong criticism I have about Dawntrail was Bakool Ja Ja's sudden transformation from evil jerk to would-be hero. He was just poorly written. There were plenty of opportunities early on to suggest he had other motivations besides just being a twit. And there seems to be zero consequences in store for him for releasing Valigarmunda, even though we were told he would have to answer for it. I just feel like they really dropped the ball on his arc.

[elioaiko]

I would say that DT just suffers from the story needing to "restart" after the conclusion of the OG story that's been brewing for years.

The writers have to set up a story while leaving enough for possible future stories. It's clear that they were struggling to decide where to go.

And no, having a "vacation arc" isn't really compelling for an entire expansion. Sure they didn't need to have a big ole fight with a massive save the world sequence, but they needed to have conflict, climax and ending. You can't really have that with a chill arc.

I think the story was pretty okay until the turning point with the involvement of reflections. I didn't mind a tournament storyline with some tribal/clan drama and thought they should have leaned into that rather than cheap out on another reflection needing our help. Idk the reflection bit was a cop-out IMO.

Wuk Lamat is really not the issue tbh, because she just suffers from a lackluster VA performance. But she functions as the main protagonist and I thought her journey with her and Koana understanding what it means to lead was nice.

Truth be told that WoL story is done. There's no more mysterious or origin story for us as that was revealed and explored in EW. We're only here as a vehicle for other characters to take the spotlight.

I thought that the story should have had Krile as the main character bc she's very underutilized and her voice work is more compelling. We did get some closure for her with DT but she's one of the scions whose story wasn't quite done yet.

Tbh, I wish they had done something like the Eureka storyline. For one, Krile was present and worked great as the lead for that storyline. The mystery and set dressing for Eureka was so much more interesting IMO.

Overall, I think they played it a little too safe and it showed because it felt been there done that.

I do think that the raid storyline is interesting. I'm curious with the alliance raid tho. Like Eureka, it's gonna be XI themed so there might be room for exploration on that front.

[Silver-Strider]

I would say that DT just suffers from the story needing to "restart" after the conclusion of the OG story that's been brewing for years.

I'm not a writer but even I could've woven a better narrative than what the Dev did for Dawntrail that would've had plenty of arguably low stakes in regards to our character but have been reasonable for the new cast they introduced to help flesh them and the world out more and without the rushed high stakes storyline tacked on at the end. I'm going to focus solely on the 1st half of the story to try and salvage it in a more impactful manner.

1st off, let's make the people of Tural seem like an actual community. The Peruperu people are hardcore merchants so why is there so little interaction between them and the Moblins that are housing craftsman that provide high quality work? To actually learn about the cultures of these people, I felt that these 2 groups of people should've been in closer proximity to one another and have active interactions with one another. The Moblins need some supplies to keep their potsworns content so the Peruperu do their thing and supply them with the goods while the Moblins provide some prime items for the merchants to peddle in town. This would've given us a meaningful insight to not only the cultures of both these groups of people, but we also get a brief look into Tural's financial infrastructure. We can have the bandits even be a part of this narrative to show that the system isn't perfect, an issue that Wuk Lamat's little speech at her inauguration brings up briefly but we never actually address it. This would've potentially given Wuk Lamat some means of trying to address the issue then as well to show some level of competency as a character.

Next up, we get some slight racial tension between the Hrothgar and Mamool Ja but I feel that they never went far enough with it. The whole reason Wuk was even sent to Galool Ja Ja was because an attempt was made on her life as a child so what exactly is preventing something similar from happening. What if someone had poisoned the dish during the contest? Apart from Bakool Ja Ja being the clearly obvious person to pin the blame on but just for the sake of narrative, what if it wasn't him but Zarool Ja's advisor? The man was sus as hell for the entire 1st half and nothing is done with him but if he had a secret agenda to elevate the standing of the people of Mamook, it would make sense as to why he asked for Bakool Ja Ja to be kept alive when he asked Zarool Ja to spare him, despite him being a very clear obstacle in Zarool Ja's chances of becoming the Dawnservant. As for Mamook, that could've been this very hostile place for Wuk Lamat that culminated in discovering their whole Eugenics project ourselves, without the Bakool Ja Ja's heel turn moment to reveal it for us. We had to search the town anyways to learn their culture, so I think hearing something about the Skydeep Cenote and us going to investigate it to discover that plotline would've been a hell of a shock if told in this manner.

The Hanuhanu could've straight up just summoned a Primal accidentally. This is the Scion's bread and butter conflict. This gives them an actual reason to be involved in the story narratively and not just be shadows of their former characters, following along as little more than Yes Men for Wuk Lamat. The minute I saw that beam of light hitting that effigy of the Hanuhanu's deity, I FULLY expected a primal to come out as a result and I'm sure I wasn't the only one.

Finally, the giants and Valigarmanda. For the most part, I had very little issue with how the narrative of it all played out, except for the aftermath of it. Bakool Ja Ja setting free Valigarmanda should've given the rival faction of giants a very clear motive to denounce the Dawnservert and their trials because of Bakool's actions and actually tried to entreat the other giants to join them in seeking revenge. Again, putting Wuk in a position to actually attempt to uphold the peace her father put in place. She could've brought Bakool Ja Ja to justice for his crimes as a means of atonement and to prove that we are worthy of going on their sacred mountain to stop Valigarmanda before he could do more harm. Now, admittedly, this would break up the story structure that SE has set in place by introducing 2 trial bosses relatively close to one another narratively but what's wrong with shaking up the formula a little bit now and again? One of the major criticisms of DT is a lack of gameplay involved so would giving us an extra trial, or even just a solo instance against the Hanuhanu Primal really have been so outlandish? I don't think it would be.

The story was there, it just needed to be pieced together better than what we got, with story elements being added just to give depth to characters and actually flesh them out. The major downside to this story though was that it does paint the Mamool Ja and Bakool Ja Ja as purely evil but that's what the post patch story is for. We give Bakool Ja Ja the Fordola treatment and actually have him earn his redemption. We actually help the people of Mamook handle their problems and try to address the racial tension little by little. There was potential and it was squandered.

[FedoraTheExplorer]

The three true problems of Dawntrail are:

1. The playerbase is media illiterate. That is me being nice. The majority cannot read, cannot understand themes that aren't as simple as grief or hope vs nihilism, cannot understand subtlety and require things to be spoonfed to them (but then they get mad about being spoonfed! Get some media literacy then lol!). They are only capable of surface level reading which is why I have to see absolute dumb takes like "Sphene is just Emet-Selch." This leads to the next issue -

2. A lack of curiousity about the other FF games. Seriously, having knowledge on the other FFs actually enriches FFXIV. But for most, XIV is their first FF and most likely their only FF which is a shame. There's no desire to even do simple read ups. I don't think I would have half liked DT if I didn't have prior knowledge of FF9. And this feeds the silly surface level reads I have to see. "Zoraal Ja is just another Zenos", "they're trying to repeat Amaurot". Face. Palm.

3. The Trust system. They haven't figured out how Trusts must work going forward despite having already solved this problem - generic NPCs. As long as they refuse to let the Scions go, we''re likely to run into these awkward scenarios where the Scions are only there for the sake of DF. To be honest? I'm a little sick of the Scions and would not mind having new faces going forward. I wish the writers would not cling to them like this and actually "retire" them. Maybe have some show up again in future expansions, etc, but please let these characters rest. Their developments are done.

DT is not by any means a flawless expansion, no expansion is. I do believe however the problems are overblown and are more player-made.

[Kennar]

The three true problems of Dawntrail are:

1. The playerbase is media illiterate. That is me being nice. The majority cannot read, cannot understand themes that aren't as simple as grief or hope vs nihilism, cannot understand subtlety and require things to be spoonfed to them (but then they get mad about being spoonfed! Get some media literacy then lol!). They are only capable of surface level reading which is why I have to see absolute dumb takes like "Sphene is just Emet-Selch." This leads to the next issue -

2. A lack of curiousity about the other FF games. Seriously, having knowledge on the other FFs actually enriches FFXIV. But for most, XIV is their first FF and most likely their only FF which is a shame. There's no desire to even do simple read ups. I don't think I would have half liked DT if I didn't have prior knowledge of FF9. And this feeds the silly surface level reads I have to see. "Zoraal Ja is just another Zenos", "they're trying to repeat Amaurot". Face. Palm.

3. The Trust system. They haven't figured out how Trusts must work going forward despite having already solved this problem - generic NPCs. As long as they refuse to let the Scions go, we''re likely to run into these awkward scenarios where the Scions are only there for the sake of DF. To be honest? I'm a little sick of the Scions and would not mind having new faces going forward. I wish the writers would not cling to them like this and actually "retire" them. Maybe have some show up again in future expansions, etc, but please let these characters rest. Their developments are done.

DT is not by any means a flawless expansion, no expansion is. I do believe however the problems are overblown and are more player-made.

A rebuttal:

1. Most us complaining about the story are complaining because we're smart enough to notice the flaws. Those that can't read at a high school level are going to be skipping the story anyway. The awkward pacing, the heavy reliance on convenience and happenstance to move the story along, the lack of spatial and temporal awareness, the awful dialog and complete absence of character development--none of these make for a compelling story, "themes" and "subtlety" be damned.

2. FFIX is one of my favorites in the franchise. That doesn't make DT any better. The story must stand on its own, especially if it's referencing a game made over 20 years ago. This is why I don't like crossovers and tie-ins. The Neir raids are a perfect example in that the story meant nothing to me. The one positive about them is that they sparked some curiosity, so then I played Replicant and Automata and was greatly rewarded. If DT was done right, there would be things for the fans of IX to enjoy, while at the same time not making those who haven't played it feel left out. FFXI is also a favorite, and I'm worried about what the 24-man raids are going to do it.

3: At this point I can take or leave the Scions. I think they're the least of DT's problems. Actually, this could have been a perfect opportunity to bring back some of the lesser-known Scions and give them some of the spotlight.

If you liked Dawntrail, fine. However, I expected more than an episode of the The Magic School Bus. "Gee Ms. Frizzle, I didn't realize running a country would be so hard. Now I know that I can solve centuries of conflict with Taco Night!"