The Actual Problem With Dawntrail

[Mukouda]

The three true problems of Dawntrail are:

2. A lack of curiousity about the other FF games. Seriously, having knowledge on the other FFs actually enriches FFXIV. But for most, XIV is their first FF and most likely their only FF which is a shame. There's no desire to even do simple read ups. I don't think I would have half liked DT if I didn't have prior knowledge of FF9. And this feeds the silly surface level reads I have to see. "Zoraal Ja is just another Zenos", "they're trying to repeat Amaurot". Face. Palm.

Get out of here with that hot take and i've played most games after V. If i'm playing 14, i wanna play 14 and you shouldn't need to play another god damn game to enjoy this one.
Here is another hot take, this game obsession with mindless fan service and callbacks it actually hurting it's development as a numbered entry.

[StormChase]

The problem there is nobody did. It's not a direct, personal failing on Wuk Lamat's part that Zoraal Ja's attack happened; it's a *communal* failure.

She didn't, Koana didn't, her father didn't, nobody presumably who worked with Zoraal Ja in the Landsguard predicted it, nobody anywhere predicted... a giant armada of hyperadvanced warships crossing over from another dimension to harvest souls.

...

Y'know when I say it like that I can see why nobody anticipated it at all.

It's true that it was a communal failure. I'm saying she bears some of the responsibility as a leader. She wouldn't know he was about to show up with warships, but she could've guessed he was at least plotting to oust her and tried to track him down before that happened (especially since both he and the person in charge of the spare keystones were noticeably missing). The WOL also wasn't the sole person responsible for a lot of their own failures.

[Silver-Strider]

She didn't predict Zoraal Ja's attack.

We never got any real indication of Zarool Ja at all. He was a loner but he still helped us to fight Valegarmanda so we couldn't predict what he was going to do in character. From a meta perceptive, we as players know he's up to something but his absence is never discussed and due to his nature of being reclusive, even to his family, it would've been perfectly normal behavior in their eyes. Our failing with the Crystal Braves is on us and Alphinaud for not vetting them and we knew Emet was an Ascian because he disclosed that info immediately so we should've been more cautious. Hell, we knew something was up because we overheard Uriange and Y'shtola talking about our aether being corrupted but we just decided not to bring it up. These are all lapse of judgement on our character's part so they just aren't comparable to the invasion by Zarool Ja.

Bakool Ja Ja taught her that she should try to see the good in people, even if they're really difficult. But she knew she couldn't sway Zoraal Ja. She knew she had to kill him.

These points contradict each other. She didn't try to see the good in her brother and immediately declared he must die. She does the same thing that she did in judging Bakool Ja Ja so she didn't learn a damn thing. Sure, the option to kill him is objectively the right option here but I just think her immediate decision to do it without hesitation was problematic in its depiction. If she struggled with the decision to try and see the good in her brother but was convinced by Koana and everyone that it was the right choice, you would've had a point. But no, her immediate reaction is the correct one.

That's the problem with Wuk, she can do no wrong.

[Cach]

Get out of here with that hot take and i've played most games after V. If i'm playing 14, i wanna play 14 and you shouldn't need to play another god damn game to enjoy this one.
Here is another hot take, this game obsession with mindless fan service and callbacks it actually hurting it's development as a numbered entry.

I would describe this game as a "Final Fantasy theme park". Not only is like 70% references and remixed music, there's a surprising amount of assets (like monsters) practically lifted from FFXI and XII. I assume that was on purpose to hasten 2.0 along but once you see it, you can't unsee it.

There's little identity FF14 can claim as its own.

[Mukouda]

I would describe this game as a "Final Fantasy theme park". Not only is like 70% references and remixed music, there's a surprising amount of assets (like monsters) practically lifted from FFXI and XII. I assume that was on purpose to hasten 2.0 along but once you see it, you can't unsee it.

There's little identity FF14 can claim as its own.

My friend is always annoyed by that one mob that comes from XIII.

[Vegituh]

The three true problems of Dawntrail are:

1. The playerbase is media illiterate. That is me being nice. The majority cannot read, cannot understand themes that aren't as simple as grief or hope vs nihilism, cannot understand subtlety and require things to be spoonfed to them (but then they get mad about being spoonfed! Get some media literacy then lol!). They are only capable of surface level reading which is why I have to see absolute dumb takes like "Sphene is just Emet-Selch." This leads to the next issue -

2. A lack of curiousity about the other FF games. Seriously, having knowledge on the other FFs actually enriches FFXIV. But for most, XIV is their first FF and most likely their only FF which is a shame. There's no desire to even do simple read ups. I don't think I would have half liked DT if I didn't have prior knowledge of FF9. And this feeds the silly surface level reads I have to see. "Zoraal Ja is just another Zenos", "they're trying to repeat Amaurot". Face. Palm..

"The story gets better when you know what its referencing"

I never played FF3. I enjoyed the Crystal Tower raid. I never played FF Tactics (though i did play XII) but I enjoyed the Ivalice Raids.

I played FF9. I love FF9. I hate Dawntrails MSQ. Knowing what the barebone references are too doesn't help. The story needs to stand on its own and not just be a bunch of "Hey guys, remember this plotline from a 20+ year old game? Isn't nostalgia baiting wonderful?" moments.


Also, in response to the original topic of the thread, DT is already as long as Endwalker (which was advertised as "THE LONGEST EXPAC EVER" btw) and they still couldn't make me care about Wuk Lamat, or Queen Speen, or Zoraal Ja and his inferiorty complex. Giving it more time to continue trying isn't going to save it for me or for others who didn't like it. Honestly I think I'd of liked it better if it was 2/3rds the size it currently is.

But in general Dawntrail has made me less interested in Tural as a whole. Back in ARR and SB (with blue mage) we little lore drops here and there about "the new world" and how wacky and wild it was. Dawntrail retconned the Mamoola ja being barbarians who could barely speak bit, and the Whalaqee might as well be absent entirely for how little DT even mentioned them.

Its rough, the combat content is better than Endwalker so far, and I'm enjoying Viper but when it comes to the MSQ I legitimately don't care about the story. FFXIVs story is one of my favorite storys. Shadowbringers is legit my second favorite FF story, only beaten by FF7. And this is the first time I am completely bored playing this games story. The only high points for me in the msq is whenever G'raha talks, but hes my favorite character so thats a given.

Oh well. Maybe itll get better with the patches. Or maybe it won't. Who knows at this point.

[Basteala]

Remove 80% of Wuk from the 2nd half of the expansion and it becomes REALLY good imo.

I don't know about really good, but certainly better. Given how the xpac was basically two stories in one, would it have killed them to focus on Krile for the second half?

[ConantSivrha]

The whole "sheltered" excuse doesn't work for me—she should know something about the cultures of her subjects, especially if she's in Tulliyolal, their capital.

Wuk Lamat’s unrealistic lack of knowledge about her own homeland seems, to me, like an attempt to turn her into the vehicle through which the player learns about Tural, while making sure the WoL never looks inexperienced (which denies the player the feeling of experiencing something new through their own character).

[Kennar]

It's true that it was a communal failure. I'm saying she bears some of the responsibility as a leader. She wouldn't know he was about to show up with warships, but she could've guessed he was at least plotting to oust her and tried to track him down before that happened (especially since both he and the person in charge of the spare keystones were noticeably missing). The WOL also wasn't the sole person responsible for a lot of their own failures.

The problems with "tracking him down" are the lack of information, and the lack of time. Everyone knew Zoraal Ja had a dangerous ambition, but he never gave any inclination that he was going to take a run at his old man. The obvious time for him to act on that was during Wuk Lamat's coronation and he wasn't even in the city; and as far as I remember, nobody knew about the stolen keystones until his attack. To all outside the time bubble, his attack was so far out of the realm of possibility that it was never a consideration of finding him and taking him into custody. No one is at fault for acting, or failing to act, on information that does not exist.

As for the lack of time, as I understand it only a few days had passed between the coronation, the appearance of the time bubble, and the attack on Tuliyollal. When unlocking elite hunts, you meet a huntress that had been trapped in Solution Nine for thirty years, but the guy at the hunt board says, "I can count the hours since she left." It isn't unreasonable to assume Zoraal Ja is just... somewhere else. It hasn't been that long, so nobody would consider him missing, or that he might be planning something big. Again, how do you fault anybody for failing to act?

This is a good illustration of what I mean by "a lack of spatial and temporal awareness." We never have a good idea of how big the world is. There are implications of long travel times between places, but everyone just shows up exactly when they're needed (a problem this game has always had).

--

Just as in Stormblood, when the introduction of Doma hurt the world-building of both it and Ala Mhigo, the introduction of Solution Nine stopped any development of Tural. Instead of facing yet another existential threat to the entire planet, we could have had our "low-stakes adventure" with a tighter, more local story, navigating the intricacies and intrigues of regional politics. We could have learned more about how the Dawnservant's goverment worked. Maybe the Landsguard is split into two factions, one that supports Zoraal Ja and one loyal to the throne. Maybe we stop Zoraal Ja's coup; or maybe we don't and he cracks down on foreign influence, making our character an outlaw. There are tons of possibilities here.

[Zaniel]

the introduction of Solution Nine stopped any development of Tural. Instead of facing yet another existential threat to the entire planet, we could have had our "low-stakes adventure" with a tighter, more local story, navigating the intricacies and intrigues of regional politics. We could have learned more about how the Dawnservant's goverment worked. Maybe the Landsguard is split into two factions, one that supports Zoraal Ja and one loyal to the throne. Maybe we stop Zoraal Ja's coup; or maybe we don't and he cracks down on foreign influence, making our character an outlaw. There are tons of possibilities here.

^^ This is what Dawntrail should have been, the entire Alexandrian plot is both tonal whiplash and a waste of a potential later Reflection-based storyline.