The Actual Problem With Dawntrail

[StormChase]

Come to think of it, I have an addendum to make.

First, I do think another problem is that Dawntrail added characters that really didn't need to be there.

Heavensward was able to feel more personal with more of its characters because for a good portion there were only three traveling with us (Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle). Throughout the first half of Dawntrail there are five (Alphinaud, Alisaie, Krile, Erenville, and Wuk Lamat). Alphinaud and Alisaie were with us to learn how they can deal with Garlemald better, but what we learned was pretty much what we knew (understanding the past can help us understand the present). Also, they've already gone through their own character arcs. The writers could've left the twins and there wouldn't really be any consequences.

Second, I have a few questions for the people calling Wuk Lamat a Mary Sue. I didn't want to be too confrontational when I started this thread, but I think these are questions worth asking.

Do you actually think she's a Mary Sue, or are you mad your character isn't the center of attention right now?

If you really do think she is, doesn't that mean the WOL also is on an even greater level?

If she failed harder (which I do think she should've gotten the chance to but I have a feeling why she didn't) would you like her more, or would you say she's even less qualified like what Lyse was accused of?

[Silver-Strider]

Come to think of it, I have an addendum to make.
First, I do think another problem is that Dawntrail added characters that really didn't need to be there.

Even if you removed all the Scions, the new characters did not receive any meaningful growth to them and what growth was done is forced. Bakool Ja Ja's redemption is forced because we got all of 1 or 2 lines of dialogue that he's doing what he's doing for his siblings and parents but his actions never come under much scrutiny. Sure, Wuk says that his actions can't be forgiven but then at the end of the MSQ, she's talking about how the Landsguard won't lack for strength because Bakool Ja Ja will now play a similar role that Zarool Ja played for them, so there's 0 consequences for him. Zarool Ja never got any real development at all, going from a stoic Warmonger to a deranged Warmonger with hardly a reason as to why other than a short interlude in his Trial of how he just cracked under the pressure of being this miracle child. It wasn't enough and didn't fully explain his desires or motivations all that well. Koana had some minor growth that felt natural at least but there was so much more they could've done with him as well.

Do you actually think she's a Mary Sue, or are you mad your character isn't the center of attention right now?

Mary Sue. I don't care if my character isn't the narrative focus of the story, so long as the story is compelling and the characters that are taking center stage are people I can root for. Wuk Lamat didn't fill this criteria because she doesn't really have her flaws ever bite her in the ass. Her naivety got her kidnapped by Bakool Ja Ja early on but did it change her character in any way? Not that I noticed because she still seems fine charging recklessly into the fray. The fact that there're so many dialogue "options" that do nothing more than to prop up Wuk as this amazing character that everyone loves just further enforces this notion of her being a Mary Sue.

If you really do think she is, doesn't that mean the WOL also is on an even greater level?

No because of countless examples of us being humbled.

The bloody banquet at the end of ARR
Thordan outplays us immediately after Bismark by taking the key to Azys Lla and again when the Garleans use us to break thru the barrier into Azys Lla for them.
Zenos throughout SB
Emet Selch when we fail to contain the light of the 1st.

We had moments of weakness in our seemingly impenetrable armor of a character. Even against the Endsinger, we had help from the Scions and Zenos to do that. In comparison, Wuk Lamat is just so naturally gifted that she's able to tank blows from Sphene that would've somehow been too dangerous for us to handle and are so inspired by her that we're able to beat Sphene. There isn't even a comparison.

[StormChase]

No because of countless examples of us being humbled.

The bloody banquet at the end of ARR
Thordan outplays us immediately after Bismark by taking the key to Azys Lla and again when the Garleans use us to break thru the barrier into Azys Lla for them.
Zenos throughout SB
Emet Selch when we fail to contain the light of the 1st.

We had moments of weakness in our seemingly impenetrable armor of a character. Even against the Endsinger, we had help from the Scions and Zenos to do that. In comparison, Wuk Lamat is just so naturally gifted that she's able to tank blows from Sphene that would've somehow been too dangerous for us to handle and are so inspired by her that we're able to beat Sphene. There isn't even a comparison.

It's true that the WOL was humbled several times, but I think you're missing a big way Wuk Lamat did fail.

She didn't predict Zoraal Ja's attack.

It was pretty clear Zoraal Ja wasn't going to accept the results, and his prolonged absence would've been a huge warning sign. I don't blame her for not knowing how he'd attack since even her father didn't know what was on the other side of the gate, and it wasn't entirely her fault, but in a lot of cases with the WOL it wasn't entirely their fault either. The Bloody Banquet happened because both the WOL and Alphinaud failed to properly vet the Crystal Braves, and Nanamo didn't take more precautions even though they'd just exposed one spy. Emet-Selch was able to put the WOL in a dangerous position not just because they agreed to take the light, but also because the Exarch put all his light in one basket by using one Echo user instead of two, as well as not predicting Emet-Selch would try to interfere.

Wuk Lamat's mistake did affect her actions afterwards too. Bakool Ja Ja taught her that she should try to see the good in people, even if they're really difficult. Even with Sphene she tried to get through to her as she fought, tried to get her to let go. But she knew she couldn't sway Zoraal Ja. She knew she had to kill him.

Also, if you think she isn't constantly relying on other people like the WOL is, then you're intentionally seeing just what you want to see. The only two times people didn't fight alongside her were the solo duty against Bakool Ja Ja and when she broke Zoraal Ja's regulator. She could tank a hit but she wouldn't have been able to beat Sphene all by herself. She would've taken too many hits at some point.

[BigBoom550]

She didn't predict Zoraal Ja's attack.

The problem there is nobody did. It's not a direct, personal failing on Wuk Lamat's part that Zoraal Ja's attack happened; it's a *communal* failure.

She didn't, Koana didn't, her father didn't, nobody presumably who worked with Zoraal Ja in the Landsguard predicted it, nobody anywhere predicted... a giant armada of hyperadvanced warships crossing over from another dimension to harvest souls.

...

Y'know when I say it like that I can see why nobody anticipated it at all.

[StormChase]

The problem there is nobody did. It's not a direct, personal failing on Wuk Lamat's part that Zoraal Ja's attack happened; it's a *communal* failure.

She didn't, Koana didn't, her father didn't, nobody presumably who worked with Zoraal Ja in the Landsguard predicted it, nobody anywhere predicted... a giant armada of hyperadvanced warships crossing over from another dimension to harvest souls.

...

Y'know when I say it like that I can see why nobody anticipated it at all.

It's true that it was a communal failure. I'm saying she bears some of the responsibility as a leader. She wouldn't know he was about to show up with warships, but she could've guessed he was at least plotting to oust her and tried to track him down before that happened (especially since both he and the person in charge of the spare keystones were noticeably missing). The WOL also wasn't the sole person responsible for a lot of their own failures.

[Kennar]

It's true that it was a communal failure. I'm saying she bears some of the responsibility as a leader. She wouldn't know he was about to show up with warships, but she could've guessed he was at least plotting to oust her and tried to track him down before that happened (especially since both he and the person in charge of the spare keystones were noticeably missing). The WOL also wasn't the sole person responsible for a lot of their own failures.

The problems with "tracking him down" are the lack of information, and the lack of time. Everyone knew Zoraal Ja had a dangerous ambition, but he never gave any inclination that he was going to take a run at his old man. The obvious time for him to act on that was during Wuk Lamat's coronation and he wasn't even in the city; and as far as I remember, nobody knew about the stolen keystones until his attack. To all outside the time bubble, his attack was so far out of the realm of possibility that it was never a consideration of finding him and taking him into custody. No one is at fault for acting, or failing to act, on information that does not exist.

As for the lack of time, as I understand it only a few days had passed between the coronation, the appearance of the time bubble, and the attack on Tuliyollal. When unlocking elite hunts, you meet a huntress that had been trapped in Solution Nine for thirty years, but the guy at the hunt board says, "I can count the hours since she left." It isn't unreasonable to assume Zoraal Ja is just... somewhere else. It hasn't been that long, so nobody would consider him missing, or that he might be planning something big. Again, how do you fault anybody for failing to act?

This is a good illustration of what I mean by "a lack of spatial and temporal awareness." We never have a good idea of how big the world is. There are implications of long travel times between places, but everyone just shows up exactly when they're needed (a problem this game has always had).

--

Just as in Stormblood, when the introduction of Doma hurt the world-building of both it and Ala Mhigo, the introduction of Solution Nine stopped any development of Tural. Instead of facing yet another existential threat to the entire planet, we could have had our "low-stakes adventure" with a tighter, more local story, navigating the intricacies and intrigues of regional politics. We could have learned more about how the Dawnservant's goverment worked. Maybe the Landsguard is split into two factions, one that supports Zoraal Ja and one loyal to the throne. Maybe we stop Zoraal Ja's coup; or maybe we don't and he cracks down on foreign influence, making our character an outlaw. There are tons of possibilities here.

[Zaniel]

the introduction of Solution Nine stopped any development of Tural. Instead of facing yet another existential threat to the entire planet, we could have had our "low-stakes adventure" with a tighter, more local story, navigating the intricacies and intrigues of regional politics. We could have learned more about how the Dawnservant's goverment worked. Maybe the Landsguard is split into two factions, one that supports Zoraal Ja and one loyal to the throne. Maybe we stop Zoraal Ja's coup; or maybe we don't and he cracks down on foreign influence, making our character an outlaw. There are tons of possibilities here.

^^ This is what Dawntrail should have been, the entire Alexandrian plot is both tonal whiplash and a waste of a potential later Reflection-based storyline.

[Silver-Strider]

She didn't predict Zoraal Ja's attack.

We never got any real indication of Zarool Ja at all. He was a loner but he still helped us to fight Valegarmanda so we couldn't predict what he was going to do in character. From a meta perceptive, we as players know he's up to something but his absence is never discussed and due to his nature of being reclusive, even to his family, it would've been perfectly normal behavior in their eyes. Our failing with the Crystal Braves is on us and Alphinaud for not vetting them and we knew Emet was an Ascian because he disclosed that info immediately so we should've been more cautious. Hell, we knew something was up because we overheard Uriange and Y'shtola talking about our aether being corrupted but we just decided not to bring it up. These are all lapse of judgement on our character's part so they just aren't comparable to the invasion by Zarool Ja.

Bakool Ja Ja taught her that she should try to see the good in people, even if they're really difficult. But she knew she couldn't sway Zoraal Ja. She knew she had to kill him.

These points contradict each other. She didn't try to see the good in her brother and immediately declared he must die. She does the same thing that she did in judging Bakool Ja Ja so she didn't learn a damn thing. Sure, the option to kill him is objectively the right option here but I just think her immediate decision to do it without hesitation was problematic in its depiction. If she struggled with the decision to try and see the good in her brother but was convinced by Koana and everyone that it was the right choice, you would've had a point. But no, her immediate reaction is the correct one.

That's the problem with Wuk, she can do no wrong.

[genuine_stranger]

Come to think of it, I have an addendum to make.

First, I do think another problem is that Dawntrail added characters that really didn't need to be there.

Heavensward was able to feel more personal with more of its characters because for a good portion there were only three traveling with us (Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle). Throughout the first half of Dawntrail there are five (Alphinaud, Alisaie, Krile, Erenville, and Wuk Lamat). Alphinaud and Alisaie were with us to learn how they can deal with Garlemald better, but what we learned was pretty much what we knew (understanding the past can help us understand the present). Also, they've already gone through their own character arcs. The writers could've left the twins and there wouldn't really be any consequences.

Second, I have a few questions for the people calling Wuk Lamat a Mary Sue. I didn't want to be too confrontational when I started this thread, but I think these are questions worth asking.

Do you actually think she's a Mary Sue, or are you mad your character isn't the center of attention right now?

If you really do think she is, doesn't that mean the WOL also is on an even greater level?

If she failed harder (which I do think she should've gotten the chance to but I have a feeling why she didn't) would you like her more, or would you say she's even less qualified like what Lyse was accused of?

Firstly, I think it's important to clarify the unique position of the Warrior of Light (WoL) in FFXIV. Unlike traditional characters, the WoL is basically our avatar, through which we experience the game's world and narrative. This avatar is a blank slate, reflecting only the characteristics and decisions we project onto them. This is especially noticeable when the dialogue choices presented don't align with our own envisioned personality for the WoL, which can be a point of contention among players.

Given that the WoL is our direct interface into the story, they inherently can't be a Mary Sue. They don't have a predefined character arc or traits beyond what we impart. Each expansion centers around different characters (e.g., Estinien, Aymeric, Ysayle in Heavensward, Raubahn, Hien, and Lyse in Stormblood), with the WoL serving more as a catalyst or facilitator in their stories rather than the central focus.

As for Wuk Lamat, I just can't get behind her character. Her personality feels all wrong. She's in her 20s (I think?), yet she acts so naive and simple-minded. The whole "sheltered" excuse doesn't work for me—she should know something about the cultures of her subjects, especially if she's in Tulliyolal, their capital. It’s frustrating how poorly written she is, and everything in Dawntrail seems to revolve around her. Even if she had more failures in her journey, the narrative would need a complete overhaul because it’s all about her, leaving no room for other characters to shine. Honestly, Dawntrail might be better off with a rewrite.

Lastly, Lyse would have faced the same criticism if Stormblood had focused on her as much as Dawntrail does on Wuk Lamat. Lyse had her own growth and moments, but Stormblood balanced her story with many other significant characters and plotlines. This made the story richer and more diverse. Dawntrail, on the other hand, is so centered on Wuk Lamat that it overshadows other potentially interesting characters and plotlines. If Dawntrail had spread its focus more evenly, like Stormblood, it might have avoided some of the criticism and delivered a more engaging story.

[ConantSivrha]

The whole "sheltered" excuse doesn't work for me—she should know something about the cultures of her subjects, especially if she's in Tulliyolal, their capital.

Wuk Lamat’s unrealistic lack of knowledge about her own homeland seems, to me, like an attempt to turn her into the vehicle through which the player learns about Tural, while making sure the WoL never looks inexperienced (which denies the player the feeling of experiencing something new through their own character).