Dark Knight Megathread

[mallleable]

The sad thing is, I've seen people over the years suggest changes to the Dark Knight that actually make it feel like a Dark Knight, but instead the devs are adamant on keeping it the way it is. Hell, I'll even throw my hat in the ring and say that Dark Knight should be centered around using your own HP to empower your attacks while draining enemies of theirs.

It does so in pvp, AND still somehow manages to be a seemingly unkillable monster. If done right, it could work really well.

[CKNovel]

I think the only one I can’t agree with is changing Salted earth to 60 seconds. I don’t know why, but it being on 90 seconds has somehow made the skill a million time more interesting then just another skill you will use in burst and nowhere else.

Like I feel crazy for this, is it just me? It can’t just be me.

There's ups and downs about this.
On one side, the 60s is more interesting but your filler becomes even more boring.
On the other, the 60s and 120s aren't interesting but your filler wants you to pay attention to something else than 1 2 3 Bloodspiller.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

...I remember Salted Earth being 45s CD with 21s duration (and giving 1 Blood per enemy ticked). The potency was also significantly more than what we have now and thst potency only got later reimbursed as a "feature" with Salt and Darkness.

60, 90 and 120 arent the only CDs man. there used to be 40, 45, and even 80...

[Terhix]

The sad thing is, I've seen people over the years suggest changes to the Dark Knight that actually make it feel like a Dark Knight, but instead the devs are adamant on keeping it the way it is. Hell, I'll even throw my hat in the ring and say that Dark Knight should be centered around using your own HP to empower your attacks while draining enemies of theirs.

I don't think it's realistic to expect that to happen in any way that's not entirely cosmetic. If at any point it becomes possible for DRK to trade healer resources for extra DPS it is guaranteed that will become the way to optimal way to play the game ("given opportunity players will optimize fun out of the game"). In such a case either spending extra healing resources on DRK would have to make it the best DPS tank by far, which would be degenerate gameplay, or not spending extra healing resources on DRK would make it the worst DPS tank by far, which also would be degenerate gameplay. You can get away with it in single player games where you control the entire party and your party composition as a whole is effectively your "build", but an MMO where you get paired with strangers according to party roles is an entirely different animal.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think it's realistic to expect that to happen in any way that's not entirely cosmetic. If at any point it becomes possible for DRK to trade healer resources for extra DPS it is guaranteed that will become the way to optimal way to play the game ("given opportunity players will optimize fun out of the game"). In such a case either spending extra healing resources on DRK would have to make it the best DPS tank by far, which would be degenerate gameplay, or not spending extra healing resources on DRK would make it the worst DPS tank by far, which also would be degenerate gameplay. You can get away with it in single player games where you control the entire party and your party composition as a whole is effectively your "build", but an MMO where you get paired with strangers according to party roles is an entirely different animal.

It'd be a hell of a constraint around which to balance, but there is a knife's edge of space into which you can offer HP-spending as a situationally useful utility without it seeing constant drain on high-potency-per-GCD heals (Regen, Aspected Benefic, etc.).

Essentially, it's purpose then would simply be to offer increased burst before complete downtime (nothing to attack and otherwise nothing to heal) and to reduce the punishment of would-be overhealing, which would be still a neat enough feature without being overly intrusive.

[OdinelStarrei]

Yup, DRK time again. I'm not going to have another diatribe, just...here's some issues. Drafting this up pre 7.05 later tonight, hoping for changes.

1. Living Shadow is becoming seriously problematic. Esteem disappears when you get launched in M1, this causes you to ghost hits. Also, Shadowstride on Esteem is still coded as a "physical ranged attack" so it takes up space in it's "rotation" when enemies disengage. This has to be some kind of oversight, because if enemies disengage and you are forced to move Esteem, and it may delay, dash, and then not have enough duration to get off the final hit. What's the final hit? Disesteem. So, there's 620 potency lost because Esteem wanted to Shadowstride instead. If it Plunged instead, it would only be a loss of 200 using base Simulacrum potency.
2. The decrease in APM, regardless of intent, is seriously diminishing my enjoyment of the job.
3. Blood Weapon being only 3 stacks, down from 5 is a baffling decision, both pre and post Delirium acquisition. Nerfing MP on DRK means less Edges and less TBNs. But it STILL isn't enough to make Darkside an interesting damage buff to maintain. So that's a mistake in both directions, when every other tank is getting more. More explosion combo on GNB, much more buzzsaw fantasy and ground aether on WAR, PLD gets free oGCD for Blade Combo. What are we BUILDING towards? Why is this entire job so boring?
4. CnS is almost vestigial at this point, 60 seconds is far too long for a cooldown that matters this little both in it's pitiful 510 potency and "additional effect" of a minimal amount of MP. 30 seconds, 2 stacks. Come on! Blasting Zone is 800 potency with HALF the cooldown!
5. Enhanced Unmend being nerfed unintentionally due to the addition of Shadowstride is the final straw for this job for me. It's embarrassing how legitimately confused I was when I realized this. Turn Enhanced Unmend into a trait that turns Shadowstride into Plunge to offset the potency loss from disengagement. Or something...

I'm playing Reaper, actually crazy how the job can change so little going into DT but still have some serious gas in the tank, Double Enshourd windows with Perfectio are peak. That's a job that remained pretty much exactly the same, but tangibly had an attempted upgrade in a minor fashion, and I think, they succeeded and improved on the base. DRK feels like, yet again, things were taken away, and not enough was given in exchange to make it worthwhile. Barebones job, I have more interesting resource management on Reaper with 3 Enshrouds per every 2 mins. I feel like I'm playing EW DRK, but worse. Which was just ShB DRK, but worse, due to 2 min consolidation.

DRK is such a letdown, and I didn't even have expectations.

[Zyvex]

Heard many people complain and meme about DRK being insanely squishy in dungeon content and other so I quickly leveled it to 100 to check for myself...

Three friends and I cleared all current expert dungeons with DRK tank + 3 DPS and 0 deaths first try...
For tanking extremes it's also fine, if you manage your TBN usage.

My conclusion is that DRK balance is in a pretty good spot and there are only minor tweaks needed.
1: DRK could use 1 more healing utility, nothing busted though, just a small extra comparable to aurora. The sustain already is fine.
2: TBN on non-pop should give the dark arts proc
3: Obvious bug fixes as the 1st point of the previous commentator mentions

I think DRK is extremely easy to pick up and play on the damaging side, but once it comes to actual tanking it's an extremely high skill for mid-rewards kinda job.

Also don't forget that WAR and PLD should not be considered as a measurement for Tank sustain. It's not "what it should be", it's more like those two jobs are massively overtuned in regards of self healing.

[hotaruchan]

Also don't forget that WAR and PLD should not be considered as a measurement for Tank sustain. It's not "what it should be", it's more like those two jobs are massively overtuned in regards of self healing.

War and PLD are what there is to compare to. and DRK is in a why should I even bother state compared to them. So just pick them up and save yourself a lot of grief is I guess the current solution unless they actually make significant changes.(likelihood of Significant changes at this point in the expac are minimal at best given track record)

[Zyvex]

War and PLD are what there is to compare to. and DRK is in a why should I even bother state compared to them. So just pick them up and save yourself a lot of grief is I guess the current solution unless they actually make significant changes.(likelihood of Significant changes at this point in the expac are minimal at best given track record)

Fair point, let's forget about GNB real quick whose self sustain is perfect...

DRK should give something in return for being the hardest tank to tank with, when done right. But instead it breaks even in terms of tanking for twice the effort.
I think it comes down to preference. Do you want a slightly more interesting rotation like PLD/GNB or play the simplest rotation in the game and focus more on tanking?

A weird trade to offer, given tank rotations aren't the prio of the role in the first place, but it'd be completely fine if DRK would in return be the one offering the most utility, not PLD. Currently DRK is only the strongest offtank for his co-tank, not the party. That should change... Or the damage.

[ApolloGenX]

I'm tired of damage being the only thing that matters with a tiny utility being the difference. Why can't we have 4 well defined good tanks with different playstyles...not just who hits more buttons??