Dark Knight Megathread

[Marxam]

it wouldn't say it would be more complex but i would make it easier to use since it just functions as a 25% hp shield similar to how Oblation is just a 10% mit. No longer will you have to hold 3k mp for at all times for a TBN. Obviously its recast would need to be increased but putting it on par with all other tank cds of 25 secs will help justify it having 2 charges.

I still think that removal of DA was the worst thing to happen to DRK and what led us to this point. Rather than refining what DA did well and focusing around that they gutted it. Compare that to WAR that had its mechanics around Infuriate and in now in DT we got some semblance of wrath stacks (still feels half baked imo) where after maxing out your stacks of 3 you get access to a big spender.

If DRK kept DA it would shift the 3k mp spender of TBN to it. We would also probably still have AD as a gcd as well so casuals can no longer complain that DRK has no sustain in dungeons.

[Malthir]

They need to throw the 2m burst window design into the bin where it belongs, it's what's killing most jobs. The jobs were at their most fun imo, when they were focused on play style instead of mechanics. What I mean by this is tanks had 2 OGCD mitigation moves back in HW.
- The paladin was a block tank and had a move that proct off of blocks, they had some heals and white magic moves for self sustain, they also could blind the enemies making them take less white damage.
- Warrior was unga bunga tank, they did better damage than paladin could not block but had the most health to counter that.
- Drk was the parry tank, an inverse of the paladin the drk had a move that proct off of parry and a move that increased their parry chance. They had no real self sustain but they had slightly more health than the Paladin and they could apply Status debuffs to enemies as well as being able to blind enemies to take less white damage.

Not all moves gave aggro, you also had TP so spamming wasn't an option, basically you had to play with a semi functioning brain, as opposed to now.

Then around SB they decided each needed a full mechanic of their own, but wanted it to fit within a burst window, so they homogenised all the new mech so they were functionally the same. They got rid of status effects, so everyone got handed self sustain out the rear and loads of OGCD's to do mitigation, where as before your moves gave you the mitigation, now it's on a 60s button press. They removed TP, they flattened MP and didn't think how it would impact DRK, SB is when they completely and utterly gutted tanking in this game and it's never really recovered just been on a downward slope since then, this is also what caused healers to suffer.

[EponaTBHSMH]

They need to throw the 2m burst window design into the bin where it belongs, it's what's killing most jobs. The jobs were at their most fun imo, when they were focused on play style instead of mechanics. What I mean by this is tanks had 2 OGCD mitigation moves back in HW.
- The paladin was a block tank and had a move that proct off of blocks, they had some heals and white magic moves for self sustain, they also could blind the enemies making them take less white damage.
- Warrior was unga bunga tank, they did better damage than paladin could not block but had the most health to counter that.
- Drk was the parry tank, an inverse of the paladin the drk had a move that proct off of parry and a move that increased their parry chance. They had no real self sustain but they had slightly more health than the Paladin and they could apply Status debuffs to enemies as well as being able to blind enemies to take less white damage.

Not all moves gave aggro, you also had TP so spamming wasn't an option, basically you had to play with a semi functioning brain, as opposed to now.

Then around SB they decided each needed a full mechanic of their own, but wanted it to fit within a burst window, so they homogenised all the new mech so they were functionally the same. They got rid of status effects, so everyone got handed self sustain out the rear and loads of OGCD's to do mitigation, where as before your moves gave you the mitigation, now it's on a 60s button press. They removed TP, they flattened MP and didn't think how it would impact DRK, SB is when they completely and utterly gutted tanking in this game and it's never really recovered just been on a downward slope since then, this is also what caused healers to suffer.

The problem with Square Enix is that their homogenization still comes from a fear that in specific or general situations, some jobs can be excluded from lets say PF, because a certain tank is too much better at a certain thing

But in doing that they're still, since SB, trapping themselves into making them the same and as expacs go, tanks just become more and more similar.

TBH to give tanks back a sense of identity they need not only a tank redesign but also a complete encounter redesign to go along these tank changes and Im not sure if or when they will be ready to take that route.

[GoatOfWar]

The problem with Square Enix is that their homogenization still comes from a fear that in specific or general situations, some jobs can be excluded from lets say PF, because a certain tank is too much better at a certain thing

But in doing that they're still, since SB, trapping themselves into making them the same and as expacs go, tanks just become more and more similar.

TBH to give tanks back a sense of identity they need not only a tank redesign but also a complete encounter redesign to go along these tank changes and Im not sure if or when they will be ready to take that route.

The problem with the homogenisation is that it becomes easier and easier to spot the best one.
And because they now all play the same minus some bells and whistles, if you can play one of them, you can also play the best.
If i were to tank again, i'd have ZERO reason to pick anything besides Warrior. Best invuln, best sustain, best party mit, best utility and a close second on dps. It's the developer's favourite job, and coincidentally, the lamest job in the entire game. But it has the loudest playerbase so it's now the best. Which is exactly why i don't play tank anymore. There is simply not a reason to play tank because you'll always pick the incorrect option unless you really like swinging around some ugly fridge on a stick and pressing your Fell cleave button. Warrior is powercreeping both Pld and Drk. Gnb is holding on to 100 extra dps, and people think that still matters.

[SalamanderIX]

I'd really love to avoid even more homogenization. I keep hearing cries for Dark Knight to "receive more sustain" Sure I wouldn't mind for DRK to be stronger, I just don't want that strength to be the same one all the other tanks already have, and at this point not healing much feels more like an identity than TBN does.

The middle-road is really to address what people might be concerned about in terms of squishiness, without introducing more healing into DRK's kit. And that is giving a Parry booster again. I'm not sure if they'd be as bold as giving back Dark Dance, or just making it a passive skill (it could replace enhanced unmend). Reducing damage from auto-attacks would help in dungeon pulls and as a main tank in raids. Little things like this combined with potency changes should go a long way for the remainder of Dawntrail, since I don't expect major changes until 8.0.

[Terhix]

I'd really love to avoid even more homogenization. I keep hearing cries for Dark Knight to "receive more sustain" Sure I wouldn't mind for DRK to be stronger, I just don't want that strength to be the same one all the other tanks already have, and at this point not healing much feels more like an identity than TBN does.

100% with you on not making tanks more homogenized, but the way the game is designed tanks do need self sustain to be competitive. Being bad at tanking is not job identity, it's just bad job balance. DRK doesn't need as much self sustain as other tanks, it just needs to bridge the gap between what other tanks can heal vs what we can already absorb with TBN, and you can easily do that via mechanics that are uniquely DRK.

I'd say giving DRK parry is way bigger of a change than just making Abyssal Drain - a dedicated self-sustain button we already have - not a meme, all it needs is decoupling the cooldown and number tuning. Parry also wouldn't help us with bosses that do magic auto attack damage, which is a lot of them. If you made it work on magic then you are actually adding homogenization between DRK and PLD as that version of parry would be mechanically identical to shield block.

[Derio]

They need to throw the 2m burst window design into the bin where it belongs, it's what's killing most jobs. The jobs were at their most fun imo, when they were focused on play style instead of mechanics. What I mean by this is tanks had 2 OGCD mitigation moves back in HW.
- The paladin was a block tank and had a move that proct off of blocks, they had some heals and white magic moves for self sustain, they also could blind the enemies making them take less white damage.
- Warrior was unga bunga tank, they did better damage than paladin could not block but had the most health to counter that.
- Drk was the parry tank, an inverse of the paladin the drk had a move that proct off of parry and a move that increased their parry chance. They had no real self sustain but they had slightly more health than the Paladin and they could apply Status debuffs to enemies as well as being able to blind enemies to take less white damage.

Not all moves gave aggro, you also had TP so spamming wasn't an option, basically you had to play with a semi functioning brain, as opposed to now.

Then around SB they decided each needed a full mechanic of their own, but wanted it to fit within a burst window, so they homogenised all the new mech so they were functionally the same. They got rid of status effects, so everyone got handed self sustain out the rear and loads of OGCD's to do mitigation, where as before your moves gave you the mitigation, now it's on a 60s button press. They removed TP, they flattened MP and didn't think how it would impact DRK, SB is when they completely and utterly gutted tanking in this game and it's never really recovered just been on a downward slope since then, this is also what caused healers to suffer.

The problem is they have designed 20+ jobs around this design. For them to remove the 2 minute meta would be serious amount of work that would probably be an entire expansion if not more worth of work which I just dont see them doing.

[mallleable]

Salted Earth should have a 60 second cool down, Shadowbringer charges should be 40, Carve, and Spit, and Abyssal Drain should be 30.

[CKNovel]

The problem is they have designed 20+ jobs around this design. For them to remove the 2 minute meta would be serious amount of work that would probably be an entire expansion if not more worth of work which I just dont see them doing.

The actual problem is that even if they remove the 2 min meta, DRK would remain uninsteresting.
There's plenty of other jobs that are fun even in the 2 min meta. GNB has a gnashing fang & Blasting Zone every 30s, Warrior needs to pay attention to his buff and Upheaval, PLD has Divine Might, Circle of Scorn, Expiacion and Atonments to manage.
DRK has what... mindless 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3 while waiting for Delirium to come back.

[Kaixern]

DRK has what... mindless 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3 while waiting for Delirium to come back.

Don't forget the three Horizontal laser/line attacks and the weigthless dash.
Magnificent gameplay design!