Dark Knight Megathread

[Rithy255]

DRK needs a rework from the ground up its shameful how even the new jobs from shb and ew are better and have more thought for levels they don't even start with. Meanwhile, DRK is a HW job but it keeps getting gutted over and over again without care for the consequences. Besides SCH and AST I think its the only job that get gradually worse every expansion.

I think it's a pattern with tanks/healers in particular, obviously not every tank has been getting worse every expansion (I'd argue the recent pld changes were overall worse despite making the job less clunky and how healer design works currently actually effects tanks needing to use defensives or utility properly), The design of anything that isn't a DPS at this point feels watered down and made sure that anyone can just pick up the roles at a basic level.... but this has been shown not to really increase play rate just increase complaints.

Dark Knight clearly is the weakest in tank design imo... well I'd argue warrior is also for completely different reasons, but tanks are really not in a great spot as a whole... need I even talk about healer design?

But I can agree if any tank deserves a rework, Dark Knight is it, but I really hope they actually look into the Point of tanking as a whole, as the entire role is just boring defensive DPS at this point.

[Kreyd]

The design of anything that isn't a DPS at this point feels watered down and made sure that anyone can just pick up the roles at a basic level.... but this has been shown not to really increase play rate just increase complaints.

This tbh.

No Idea how Dawntrail will impact Tanks (and also Healers) but if this continues I really hope that 8.0 will just release 1 Range Job and focus on Tank (and Healer) reworks, instead of two new Jobs.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I've already made a conscious decision to not level up Dark Knight in the next expac if doesn't get a rework that makes it feel less bad to play with raid buffs... because the oGCD spam makes it VERY hard to fit all of those oGCDs into 20 second burst window while also clipping the GCD...

You can convert Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details).

Heck you could make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside become Living Shadow with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300, and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow.
Edit: Basically I just want to turn and maintain Darkside in and out of of combat with the haste effect of Heavensward/Stormblood Blood Weapon.
Edit 2: Have Darkside upgrade into Delirium to where it generates a Dark Arts stack every 15 seconds indicated by the Darkside timer(or gauge as the devs called it) and have Delirium become Living Shadow A.K.A. True Darkside.
Edit 8: For those who still want the summon pet mechanic, add a new ability called Summon Shadow and its duration and AI needs to be more like a Trust/Duty Support NPC that does Tank mechanics, give it an AoE Rescue for specific group mechanics, but CANNOT be used while at the same time as Living Shadow and should Esteem be KO'd, it grants Living Shadow automatically, or just keep as is right now which is basically a summon pet for 20+ seconds takes forever to wake up.

You could bring back Dark Passenger, make it GCD that costs MP, and have it combo into Flood of Darkness/Shadow, which then combos into Shadowbringer, and they all cost 3000 MP each, because the MP guzzling aspect of Dark Knight is enough to make it stand out from the other tanks, I just wish the MP spenders were GCDs, and I wish they gave Blood gauge, and restored HP equal to damage dealt per hit (see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details) and were DPS neutral in single target to Blood gauge spender at the start and ramps up, and you could make these share 1 button space like Gnashing Fang combo or Confiteor combo.
Edit 3: Could also add a predecessor to Shadowbringer at level 62 with 80 less potency than Shadowbringer.

Edge of Darkness/Shadow you could make it become a GCD weaponskill that cost 20 Blood gauge, that combos into Bloodspiller that costs 15 Blood Gauge, that combos into Carve and Spit that also cost 15 Blood gauge, and they could restore MP and restore HP equal to damage dealt(see the Melee DPS Role Action Bloodbath for more details), and you could also make these share 1 button.

You could make Quietus cost 15 Blood gauge and have restore MP, and make Abyssal Drain a GCD that cost 3000 MP that restore Blood gauge, make both restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit(see the Melee DPS role action Bloodbath for more details), and people would would try to find a use for these.
Edit 4: Could also keep Abyssal Drain an oGCD with 2 charges on 30 second recast timer because of "but muh APM" arguments.

Dark Arts button we can bring back as 60 second cooldown which grants 3 Dark Arts charges, which double the potency of all actions, ignore resources for 3 actions and if used on Dark Passenger, Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and/or Shadowbringer it converts Dark Arts into a new resource called Blood Arts which is basically triples damage dealt for Blood gauge spenders, but only in combat. The Blackest Night have the MP cost removed, but would need it's recast timer increased to 25 seconds, and if falls off 1 Dark Arts charge, if it breaks it grants 3 instead.
Edit 7: Could also have Dark Arts reduce recast timers of MP spenders to 1.5 seconds for a little more APM you thought you needed more APM.

You could bring back 4.3 Sole Survivor, buff it to where it increase damage dealt to enemies by 5%(or damage enemies receive to better understand it) and reduce the amount of damage that those enemies would deal to players by 10%, have it be 2 charges, and it would give Dark Knight a raid buff that's good against bosses and also good in dungeons. Not good for when bosses become non-targetable to keep it balanced.
Edit 5: Could also have it deal damage and make the recast timer 30 seconds but the duration is 10-ish seconds because of "but muh APM" arguments.

You could give the Dark Mind the Addle treatment, and it would feel less bad against physical tank busters.
Edit 6: Could also give Dark Missionary the Addle treatment on the off chance there is physical raidwide, and by extension Heart of Light since the effect is copy-pasted on Gunbreaker already.

You could make Living Dead just be a 20 second invuln that drops your HP to 1(you still take damage) that restores HP equal to damage dealt by 300%, and it would be better than Holmgang, and justify the 300 second cooldown. Yes I am aware that the other tanks would complain about their invuln not being as long as Living Dead but that's the point.

All of this would make up for the fact that Dark Knight would no longer have a massive oGCD spam during the course of fights, and feel a lot less janky to play and would probably make Dark Knight be SO MUCH better than when it first launched in Heavensward, with a lot more opportunities to pop a defensive or utility during burst....
Edit 9:This would also address the button bloat issue, as well as introducing older abilities to people who did not play Heavensward when it was relevant, while still introducing new abilities, and make leveling Dark Knight from 50-60 feel less braindead to an extent, because spamming 1-2-3 for more than 10 minutes might cause some kind of brain rot...

[Shurrikhan]

snip

I gotta admit... I'm not sure I want... much of any of this.

You can convert Salt and Darkness into GCD spell that combos after Stalwart Soul and move it to level that Salted Earth is and it would make AoE feel slightly better, though could make Stalwart Soul and Salt and Darkness restore MP, Blood gauge, and restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit.

I do not want a three-step AoE combo. Stalwart Soul also already gives resources. And unless you want your AoEs to suck in 2-4 targets, you probably do not want your AoE's resource generation to scale with target count without limitations.

You could bring back Dark Passenger, make it GCD that costs MP, and have it combo into Flood of Darkness/Shadow, which then combos into Shadowbringer, and they all cost 3000 MP, because the MP guzzling aspect of Dark Knight is enough to make it stand out from the other tanks, just the MP spenders were GCDs

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "combos" into, or whether they cost 3k each or in total (combo nullifies the follow-ups' costs). I don't think I like either one, though. On the one hand you end up with Double Down + Gnashing Fang's inflexibility, requiring that you have 9k MP saved up before each Shadowbringer, with the only benefit(?) being (I guess?) that you'd be forced to spread your Shadowbringers out some. On the other hand, you end up with... well, still bundling those skills completely in order not to waste 2 Edge's worth of MP.

Heck you could make Blood Weapon be a mini Darkside that grants 15-25% haste which then becomes Darkside when you do the quest to unlock it, and then have Darkside become Living Shadow with the dark flames aura that also boosts potency by 100-300, and we can keep the ways to maintain Darkside and have those apply to Blood Weapon and Living Shadow.

Likewise not sure what this means. "Darkside" as a 15-25% buff? And that becomes permanent after unlocking the 'real' Darkside? And then that replaces Living Shadow, too?

I feel like this could be decent, but I truly cannot tell from the way it's described. I'm not opposed to a HW Blood of the Dragon-esque mechanic (but with speed and spenders instead of +50% damage to a category of oGCDs + spenders), but I'd need more info on what exactly it is you want this to do, gameplay-wise.

Edge of Darkness/Shadow you could make it become a GCD weaponskill that cost 20 Blood gauge, that combos into Bloodspiller that costs 15 Blood Gauge, that combos into Carve and Spit that also cost 15 Blood gauge, and they could restore MP and restore HP equal to damage dealt, and you could also make these share 1 button.

Why are we trying to make the job that always had comparatively high oGCD attack usage... lose most of its oGCDs?

I haven't seen many complaints about DRK having too many oGCD casts on the whole, only that they're too concentrated (that, per 120s, you burst them all within 15s and are then left bored for the remaining 105s).

Similarly, what is the point in so greatly reducing Blood costs but then delaying your oGCDs attacks behind them? I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad idea, but... I don't see any obvious merit, either, and of the two I'd tend towards not muddying them in that way probably being the better option.

You could make Quietus cost 15 Blood gauge and have restore MP, and make Abyssal Drain a GCD that cost 3000 MP that restore Blood gauge, make both restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit, and people would would try to find a use for these.

Unless by "restore HP equal to damage dealt per hit" you mean specifically that they just have a cure potency equal to their attack potency and/or use the highest individual instance of damage among all hits done in that cast as their healing value... the use case is going to still be very simple. You'd use it in AoE. Outside of AoE, you would not use it.

Dark Arts button we can bring back as 60 second cooldown which grants 3 Dark Arts charges, which double the potency of all actions, ignore resources for 3 actions and if used on Dark Passenger, Flood of Darkness/Shadow, and/or Shadowbringer it converts Dark Arts into a new resource called Blood Arts which is basically triples damage dealt for Blood gauge spenders, but only in combat

That... seems simply to be a slightly more convoluted version of the current Delirium. What's the objective of this change?

The Blackest Night have the MP cost removed, but would need it's recast timer increased to 25 seconds, and if falls off 1 Dark Arts charge, if it breaks it grants 3 instead.

This would damn near force you to use it on CD, as it'd grant your 60s offensive CD every 25s so long as you pop it. Such would likely be vastly less now that you've made them GCDs, but still, no other on-demand directly grants damage in that way.

You could bring back 4.3 Sole Survivor, buff it to where it increase damage dealt to enemies by 5% and reduce the amount of damage that those enemies would deal by 10%, have it be 2 charges, and it would give Dark Knight a raid buff that's good against bosses and also good in dungeons.

...A 2-minute 30% HP-restoring CD, but now with half a single-target Reprisal? Ehhh...

The problem there is that many raid-buffs that need mitigation... can't be mitigated through debuffs on an enemy, simply because they're either independent or the boss isn't even attackable during that time.

You could give the Dark Mind the Addle treatment, and it would feel less bad against physical tank busters.

Sure. Sounds fine.

You could make Living Dead just be a 20 second invuln that drops your HP to 1(you still take damage) that restores HP equal to damage dealt by 300%, and it would be better than Holmgang, and justify the 300 second cooldown.

I wouldn't hate this.

All of this would make up for the fact that Dark Knight would no longer have oGCD spam, and feel a lot less janky to play and would probably make Dark Knight be SO MUCH better than when it first launched in Heavensward.

Thus far, what you've suggested sounds more jank to me than its present version, tbh. I also suspect I'd slightly prefer the HW version over what you're suggesting here. Frankly, having a higher number of oGCD attacks, and apm in general, than most other tanks --per periods of quick frenetic burst-- seems iconic to XIV's DRK, and I'd rather not throw that out.

[DRKoftheAzure]

I'm only going to respond to the stuff that piqued my interest...

Why are we trying to make the job that always had comparatively high oGCD attack usage... lose most of its oGCDs?

Because Dark Arts spam was stupid in Stormblood and I want to move away from what is essentially Dark Arts spam but under multiple different names

I haven't seen many complaints about DRK having too many oGCD casts on the whole, only that they're too concentrated (that, per 120s, you burst them all within 15s and are then left bored for the remaining 105s).

Thank you for proving to me once again, that you don't actually read...

This would damn near force you to use it on CD, as it'd grant your 60s offensive CD every 25s so long as you pop it. Such would likely be vastly less now that you've made them GCDs, but still, no other on-demand directly grants damage in that way.

That proves how bad you are at managing a single defensive cooldown

Thus far, what you've suggested sounds more jank to me than its present version, tbh. I also suspect I'd slightly prefer the HW version over what you're suggesting here. Frankly, having a higher number of oGCD attacks, and apm in general, than most other tanks --per periods of quick frenetic burst-- seems iconic to XIV's DRK, and I'd rather not throw that out.

Dark Knight sucks at being a tank with a high APM via oGCD, and Gunbreaker already does that better AND intentionally. And again, the high APM was a result of Stormblood Dark Arts spam. And I would like to enjoy looking at the animations before my next GCD becomes available, thank you.

[Shurrikhan]

the high APM was a result of Stormblood Dark Arts spam.

DRK already led in APM... in HW. That's been part of its gimmick from its literal inception.

There is also significant differences between how/where that APM is paced and how that affects playflow. GNB has, on average, an APM between DRG and SAM, yet its flow of that APM is not much like either.

Because Dark Arts spam was stupid in Stormblood

Which has, what, exactly, with wanting to make most of DRK's offensive oGCDs NOW into GCDs?

There is no Dark Arts. This is not Stormblood. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of Dark Arts. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of any part of Stormblood DRK. So how would Stormblood Dark Arts be remotely relevant to this?

Thank you for proving to me once again, that you don't actually read

By all means, find me the DRKs who hate using oGCDs, period, rather than simply wanting a more space in their 2m bursts and/or comparatively more to do between them?

That proves how bad you are at managing a single defensive cooldown

You suggested that every TBN, from which you had already removed the MP cost, should freely grant 3 Edges' worth of resources that have yet additional tack-on effects.

How would that not entice using TBN as near as pop-ably possible to on CD? It would be a defensive tool only as a bottleneck and an offensive tool first and foremost.

And The Blackest Night in it's current state should not be tied to damage dealt without a big enough payoff. But I do agree that Dark Knight is a bit too frail for when you DON'T have The Blackest Night.

...Then why are you suggesting that the offensive value difference between popping and not popping it be doubled (3x for popping vs 1x for not, as compared to 1x for popping vs. 0x for not)?

You still ultimately have to balance the job around that resource inflow. Any time you fail to get your suggested 3x Dark Arts per TBN, you've lost 2 Dark Arts. That's still damage being tied to it.

[DRKoftheAzure]

DRK already lead in APM... in HW. That's been part of its gimmick from its literal inception.

Okay, that was MOSTLY because of Parry builds but that was VERY inconsistent, and less Dark Arts that cause the high APM, and maybe Dark Dance and Dark Passenger Evasion bonuses.

There is also significant differences between how/where that APM is paced and how that affects playflow. GNB has, on average, an APM between DRG and SAM, yet its flow of that APM is not much like either.

So what's the APM for Dark Knight, Dragoon and Samurai right now? Because the average APM for Gunbreaker if you factor in Reprisal, 2-3 Heart of Corundum, and 1 Aurora for defensives, to about 45 APM on average, Paladin is slightly lower than (with room for error on APM due to frequency auto-attacks for Paladin) and that's if you doing casual content without using any other defensive cooldown.

Which has, what, exactly, with wanting to make most of DRK's offensive oGCDs NOW into GCDs?

There is no Dark Arts. This is not Stormblood. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of Dark Arts. You have not suggested a (restrained) reinclusion of any part of Stormblood DRK. So how would Stormblood Dark Arts be remotely relevant to this?

Because I am so fed up with how Dark Knight plays right now that I don't care restraining myself, and you are not helping in the slightest.

You suggested that every TBN, from which you had already removed the MP cost, should freely grant 3 Edges' worth of resources that have yet additional tack-on effects.

How would that not entice using TBN as near as pop-ably possible to on CD? It would be a defensive tool only as a bottleneck and an offensive tool first and foremost.

Again, that's says more about you wasting a single defensive cooldown that has the potential for 6 GCDs worth of free big damage for, otherwise, you only get 2 GCDs worth of free big damage, which is where the Quietus and Abyssal Drain reworks come in, for player like you... Though I do understand the concerns of it being overpowered, but the big damage makes up for the lack of oGCDs, something you CLEARLY did not understand...

[Oizen]

DRK has always been some level of ogcd spam, I don't think completely shifting away from that in a rework is a good idea.
The job needs more gcds, but I don't think it should be made into a gcd combo job, we already have PLD and WAR for that.

I also dont think its gameplay within buffs is all that bad, nor have I ever really struggled to keep everything in a buff window as hard as I have when I play GNB.
To me the issue with DRK is more of it feels really weak outside of raid buffs, and frail too considering you're never going to have TBN after any burst window if you've dumped everything into it.

[DRKoftheAzure]

DRK has always been some level of ogcd spam, I don't think completely shifting away from that in a rework is a good idea.
The job needs more gcds, but I don't think it should be made into a gcd combo job, we already have PLD and WAR for that.

That was because of Dark Arts spam in Stormblood and I hated it... and Warrior doesn't even do the GCD combo job outside of 1-2-3A or 1-2-3B. Paladin could do a lot better with Sword Oath, and Confiteor combo I wish was not tied to Requiescat's activation, and Paladin would work better as high APM tank because shield and Gladiator training.

I also dont think its gameplay within buffs is all that bad, nor have I ever really struggled to keep everything in a buff window as hard as I have when I play GNB.
To me the issue with DRK is more of it feels really weak outside of raid buffs, and frail too considering you're never going to have TBN after any burst window if you've dumped everything into it.

Gunbreaker was designed with double weaving at the right time in mind, and does high APM thing better than Dark Knight. And The Blackest Night in it's current state should not be tied to damage dealt without a big enough payoff. But I do agree that Dark Knight is a bit too frail for when you DON'T have The Blackest Night.

[Shurrikhan]

Some Brief Countersuggestions (more details on edit)...

GOALS:

• Improve DRK's leveling kit, such as through the addition of a lower-level TBN-predecessor.
• Declutter opener slightly.
• Increase gameplay engagement between bursts.
• Improve DRK's defensive optionality in general.
• Replace Darkside's present functionality.
• Reduce sense of button-bloat.
• Some further miscellaneous improvements for polish and diversity of gameplay.

Spitballs to that Effect:

• All DRK spells now instead classified as weaponskills, thereby scaling with SkS.
• Living Dead now produces a grey mist around the DRK upon popping Living Dead and 3D misty skull above the DRK while Walking Dead is active. HP restored per weaponskill reduced, but oGCD attacks now also heal.
• Dark Mind also reduces physical damage taken by 10%.
• Living Shadow now summons in more quickly and can be retargeted while active. Maybe you sacrifice 25% of your stats to summon it, but your Living Shadow duplicates your actions at 50% effectiveness and can be consumed to prevent fatal damage that would kill you by less than 50% of your HP, meaning that it's a huge boon to Blood and MP generation atop a 12.5% damage increase and can act as a restrained pseudo-immunity. (Not consumed if Living Dead is active.) W/e. So long as it makes it more interesting.
  
  
• Shadowskin added at level 35. Reduces damage taken by 15% until having reached a maximum of 10% of your HP thus nullified, lasting 5 seconds. 25s CD. At level 56 it upgrades to a 30% damage taken reduction until having reached a maximum of 20% of your HP thus nullified and extends the duration to 7s. Shadowskin effectively replaces The Blackest Night, which is instead relegated to an additional spending option from Shadowskin.
• Blood Pact added at level 45. 60s CD. It sacrifices 20% of your HP to generate a shield equal to the same amount for 10s. At the end of that duration, any remaining barrier health is consumed to heal the target for the same. Each strike against the you while the barrier remains generates MP and your self-healing restores the barrier first, your own health second.
• Blood Pact upgrades into Oblation, which does the same but generates MP from either of you being hit, has a second charge, and reduces the recharge time to 40s.
  
  
• 'Dark Arts' returned in the form of "Dark Passenger", which allows you to spend 3k MP to use your cooldown-based abilities a second time within 5s of activation in order to trigger a further effect. Dark Passenger does not trigger an animation lock; instead of the player performing a physical animation, a sort of shadow self takes its place.
• A new passive, Dark Dance, has been added. %HP of damage nullified or recovered from via Dark Passenger grants "Dark Dance" at an equal percent of MP, to a maximum of 30% per action, stacking up to 100%. This resource is consumed if your offensive actions would otherwise fail to meet its MP cost.
  
  
• Using Dark Passenger on Dark Mind causes you also to duplicate 30% of all healing done and received, to a maximum of 30% of your HP thus restored.
• Using Dark Passenger on Shadowskin shifts it to the chosen target (which can be yourself) and replaces it with The Blackest Night, instead reducing damage taken by 100% until having nullified damage equal to 30% of your HP. [I still prefer a 15s TBN, but...]
• Using Dark Passenger on Shadow Wall causes you to channel a Wall of Shadow, flatly reducing all incoming damage by an amount equal to X% of your [Physical or Magical] Defense. On release, deals damage in an attack 270 degrees around you based on damage nullified.
  
  
• Using Dark Passenger on Shadowbringer causes enemies to deal flatly reduced damage for 12s, based on a portion of the damage dealt by Shadowbringer.
• Carve and Spit now deals less potency in itself but generates a Syphon Strike's worth of MP with each of its three attacks, making it a potent generator.
• Abyssal Drain now siphons 300 MP and 200 potency worth of damage and healing from each enemy and additionally inflicts its target with Abyssal Drain, stealing a further 1500 MP over 15 seconds.
• Using Dark Passenger on Carve and Spit deals significant bonus damage. Optimal to use, but not a huge loss if CnS is just used for MP generation instead.
• Using Dark Passenger on Abyssal Drain causes you to gain Pull of the Abyss for 15 seconds, causing you to heal for 25% of damage dealt.
  
  
• Blood Weapon now instead consumes Darkside duration, increasing damage and attack speed. (Possibility of this ramping with MP consumption, increasing the damage and attack speed percentages but even more greatly increasing the rate of Darkside consumption.) Timing-based skill expression based around MP gen, which in turn may be based around Dark Dance.
  
  
• Souleater no longer heals. That capacity has been shuffled over to Bloodspiller and Quietus, whose timing is more controllable and whose acquisition have been greatly hastened.
• Blood gauge opened and Bloodspiller acquired at level 35.
• Bloodspiller now heals for 50% of its damage dealt and inflicts its target with Blood Spilt for 7 seconds, causing the Dark Knight to heal for 25% of damage it deals to that enemy.
  
  
• Your weaponskills now all generate at least 5 Blood, though Souleater and Stalwart Soul now generate only 15. Souleater combo therefore generates 25 per use, Stalwart Soul combo 20 per use. You therefore generate at least 50 Blood per 6 GCDs, increasing rate of access to Blood skills by 25% in single-target combat.
• Quietus now hits for 300 potency against its first target struck.
• Quietus now grants the DRK Resolve (TBR), <something something defensive, suppressive, or damage-into-barrier buff>.
  
  
• Possibility of replacing Edge and Flood, too, with Dark Passenger, via another, Continuation-like key usable after any weaponskill (allowing the animation to be dynamic, making it appear less spammy, and making the initial effects more responsive and the follow-ups slightly more timeable).
• May again return AoEs to consuming MP, rather than generating it, if most weaponskills are permitted to cleave for partial damage, allowing AoEs instead to be used for burst AoE damage and utility.

As mentioned, this is all very spitball, I may honestly end up having Blood and MP work recursively like Shroud, with Blood spent increasingly replacing a portion of the gauge with Black Blood and MP replacing that gauge with Darkside. At that point, Blood Weapon, Abyssal Drain, and Blood Pact would be the primary Blood spenders, while Bloodspiller and Delirium would be the Black Blood spenders, and Darkside would be used for incentivizing counteroffensives (spend MP on a defensive, get back Darkside, effectively refunding and empowering offensive MP spenders when unable to afford them otherwise.