How do you feel about Viper?

[Ramiee]

Basically a good melee DPS which flows well and does enshroud far better than reaper ever did. It is very simple but the constant button presses make burst only jobs we have more tolerable, I like it's ranged move because it's a small choice you have to make, do you use it on burst or save it for movement if you don't have reawaken.
But really outside of that it's very basic, this job is not going to be for everyone because of how simple it is. But that's fine.

[Leonus]

Everyone says that it’s brain dead.

Serious question. What classes aren’t brain dead. What classes are so difficult that people can classify it as brain dead by comparison. None of these classes require much more than knowing your rotation and being able to adjust on the fly. The only “difficult” class is BLM and that’s it. No other class requires much thought. Just practice.

[CidHeiral]

Everyone says that it’s brain dead.

Serious question. What classes aren’t brain dead. What classes are so difficult that people can classify it as brain dead by comparison. None of these classes require much more than knowing your rotation and being able to adjust on the fly. The only “difficult” class is BLM and that’s it. No other class requires much thought. Just practice.

That's a silly comparison. Yes most jobs aren't that complex at their core, but most of them don't tell you exactly what you need to do every step of the way. When I enter the DRG Life Phase the job doesn't spoon feed me the next buttons I should be pressing in the exact order I should be pressing them in. If you like Viper more power to you, but to try to argue that every job is as simple as Viper is absurd.

[Kabooa]

I think Viper serves as an excellent prototype moving forward. Were it not for the continued insistence on separating Single and AoE variants of the same skill, almost all of Viper would fit onto a singular hotbar. This is an ideal circumstance moving forward - buttons without distinct separate use cases should have as much contextual consolidation as possible where it makes sense to have it.

We have lost many buttons over the years, and the less excuses there are to remove them, the less likely we are to lose them, or at least one can hope so.

The contextual consolidations and combo advancements are exactly what I wanted to see, the ability to expand potential combo lines while still only taking up keybind real estate of 2-4 buttons.

However, if they continue to refuse to take advantage of this while implementing the consolidation (RE: no new action lines) then it is ultimately a QOL and nothing else. The ideal circumstance is additoinal combo lines are added with powerful finishers that have a cooldown or implicit cooldowns (RE: DoTs), while maintaining a filler combo-finisher, which is what most combos in the game currently are.

[Leonus]

That's a silly comparison. Yes most jobs aren't that complex at their core, but most of them don't tell you exactly what you need to do every step of the way. When I enter the DRG Life Phase the job doesn't spoon feed me the next buttons I should be pressing in the exact order I should be pressing them in. If you like Viper more power to you, but to try to argue that every job is as simple as Viper is absurd.

Let’s be real, my guy, if that is your marker for “difficulty” and “brain dead”… then you need to play harder games. Drg isn’t difficult by any stretch of the word, even if you have to look for optimal rotations and how to play something outside of the confines of the game. People really like moving on some false superiority schtick as though playing a class/job in this game is that difficult. They did a good job keeping it in the game, even if the tooltips are hot garbage. Just like any class, there a nuances to trying to optimize the class. If you don’t like it, that’s fine, we just gotta stop pretending any of the melee are particularly difficult at this point. All of them take some practice, but none of their rotations are hard. Not. A. Single. One.

You get more of a challenge trying to adapt to content than out of an individual class.

We just gotta stop overselling and underselling stuff in this game.

[Lyth]

I'm trying to think of a melee job in Dawntrail that doesn't tell you what your next base combo action is. DRG definitely does, on top of being one of the lowest APM melee jobs and being timer rather than resource dependent. Even current MNK tells you what your next combo action should be, both through the fury gauge and through dotted lines. Even more hilarious is the fact that modern day PB specifically highlights what possible actions under each form you could press next when generating Beast Chakra.

One of the things that I like about VPR's mudra-based combo system is that it does punish you for reading off your hotbar. You should generally have a mental map of at least the next few GCDs in your head in parallel with the next set of mechanics. These rotational guides are really designed for people just picking up jobs for the first time who are going to be staring at their hotbar and trying to make sense of it. You should ideally be able to play your chosen melee HUDless - it's a bit like typing without staring at your fingers. That way you can focus on the mechanics and anticipate your next series of GCDs in relation to the fight. In VPR's case, if you burst/dreadwinder/UF, at minimum you should be able to restart your combo and know your next three GCDs looking only at the NG timer and your current Venom buff. I think going forward, more combo-based jobs should go this 'mudra' route.

A big part of melee is execution at the end of the day. I'm sure if you asked the average forum member for a rough description of how each melee job is played, they probably could outline it in a few paragraphs. But pretty much every melee job has deliberate execution traps that cost you potency. The theory of making sound on a piano is really easy. Now play.

It's fairly common to undersell new melee jobs, and you'll get a lot of one-tricks copy-pasting reddit feelycraft impressions on comparative difficulty with zero personal experience to draw on (and without actually levelling the jobs that they are comparing, in a lot of cases, let alone using said jobs in practical content). It's a bit of that console wars/sour grapes effect, where people downplay the other choices just so that they feel like they haven't made the wrong choice or are missing out. Which they are, in this case.

It also seems to be the current standard to which all melee jobs are comparing themselves to, now, which is great.

[CidHeiral]

Let’s be real, my guy, if that is your marker for “difficulty” and “brain dead”… then you need to play harder games. Drg isn’t difficult by any stretch of the word, even if you have to look for optimal rotations and how to play something outside of the confines of the game.

I didn't say DRG was difficult. The point went completely over your head, "my guy."

I'm trying to think of a melee job in Dawntrail that doesn't tell you what your next base combo action is.

Every job tells you what your next base combo is, but they don't tell you when to do everything else. Viper is like if you made the base combo the entire job.


More importantly, I thought I was clear at the outset but to reiterate, I do not care that Viper is simple. It wasn't my cup of tea but I have nothing against the job or people who enjoy it. It is a fact beyond reproach that Viper is a very simple job compared to most jobs in the game, but as long as you're having fun on the job then who cares? Plenty of people love Summoner, too. There's nothing wrong with simple jobs being in the game or enjoying them.

[Leonus]

I didn't say DRG was difficult. The point went completely over your head, "my guy."

Your point didn’t go over my head, but you missed that yours was invalid by implying a modicum of difficulty or “braindead” (or at least agreeing with the term used to some degree) by stating Drg is mildly, if at all, more challenging.

People like to ride a high horse while not realizing they’re riding a pony.

Still waiting on someone to really answer my question on how or why, thats got some real basis and is not personal conjecture, it’s any more brain dead than any other melee class that you can play by some “large” margin. If you don’t like it… then just say that.

I get aesthetics and if people don’t like that they did a decent job of leading you to the next step then cool. However, when it’s all said and done… what else? Seriously? All the melees do the same stuff in a slightly different flavor/color.

[CKNovel]

That's a silly comparison. Yes most jobs aren't that complex at their core, but most of them don't tell you exactly what you need to do every step of the way. When I enter the DRG Life Phase the job doesn't spoon feed me the next buttons I should be pressing in the exact order I should be pressing them in. If you like Viper more power to you, but to try to argue that every job is as simple as Viper is absurd.

Most of the time, you just press cooldowns as soon as they're available and it'll align perfectly with everything.
DRG is basically that, some "procs" lights up such as Mirage Dive and Wyrmwind; Follow your combo, alternate between the two, throw everything on cooldown and you'll do very good.
Obviously there's some optimisation here and here.

But to argue in defense of the Viper, you can also not follow the glowing buttons to get a specific positional while not dropping your buffs, as long as you don't abuse it.

[Memyx]

From my Hardcore Casual PoV (love to research and play my jobs properly, cannot be bothered to do extremes or Savages), I think it's perfect. It plays into the "the best defense is a good offense" fantasy, all of its skills feel snappy and responsive and flow so well together (even slither, though I've seen complaints?). I've found myself at times not needing to look at my hotbar and just knowing what to do, which is rare outside of playing, say, a Healer/Tank. Whoever designed VPR & PCT needs to be allowed to take several dozen swings at every other job.