Dark Kight again, i know there are other post but lets push it

[Tunda]

You dont need it though. The problem is SE goes against its own philosophy. They want jobs to be easier to play and for everyone. While DRK rotation is very simple, perhaps the simplest out of the tanks. In dungeon content it takes the most skill to play successfully. IN DUNGEON content, the majority of content in the game DRK has to press more buttons to achieve what many of the other tanks can achieve with 1.

We have seen sustain for DRK in pvp. With old skills we lost like soul survivor. The fact that salt and darkness provides a regen in pvp and not pve is a crime. Abyssal drain should be split from Carve and Spit, and cost 3k mana and be tied to the dark arts effect to where when TBN breaks you can get a free edge, flood, or abyssal drain.

There are so many simple ways to fix DRK. But they only have 5 devs who actually work on the jobs so if the job can clear content it really isnt an issue.

F2P games with no gatcha mechanic can do more than FFXIV in term of RPG elements and balancing..

SE is trying their best to use FFXIV money to start new NFT project no one will care or remember it in 2 weeks

nothing will change and I mean it.. I played since stormblood and the game is the biggest than ever it has been

no one in SE management will care they are cashing and we are doing our best to help devs with identifying the pain points..

it weather management just don't care

or devs are too lazy to do their job..

and I lean more into management don't care because I see square enix do nothing but burning money in failure projects and I can see where this money come from

[Railynx]

I've been a DRK player for ages, I don't consider myself a DRK main, but it is definitely my most played job, to the point that I had the Dawntrail version of "Tank You Dark Knight" literally the second I logged in on DT patch day, because I already have the requirements for it well-surpassed.

I definitely don't think the jobs is nearly as bad as you think it is, but I do think a nicer middle-ground could be reached for the job.

That said, I don't understand what you mean by "TBN cost is too high". TBN's cost is dependant on whatever Edge of Shadow's cost is, and while I absolutely utterly despise Edge of Shadow as a mechanic because of how boring it is, the mana cost on Edge is fine. If TBN had a lower cost than Edge of Shadow, DRK would be the most frustrating piece of shit to play because of how obnoxious it can be to break TBN off-cooldown. If TBN was a higher cost than Edge, TBN would be the worst mitigation tool out of every single tank's abilities combined.

I personally think a positive change for the job would be giving DRK a new action that has a comparative damage return to Edge of Shadow, but has a moderately powerful healing effect tacked onto it, and the skill can only be used while under the effect of Dark Arts (which is the resource you get when your TBN breaks) and of course, removing the current effect of Dark Arts, where it gives you a free Edge/Flood cast.
It's not like DRK doesn't have a collection of gorgeous skill animations just sitting in the back log. I'm no developer, but I can't imagine this would be the most difficult thing to implement. Just add a new action, give it the namesake, icon, and animation/VFX of one of DRK's old, removed actions, and give it either the exact same potency of Edge of Shadow if it's implemented as an ability, or something comparative to how much Edge would give you (~600potency?) if it's a skill/spell. Tack on a decent self-healing potency like 600-700, and make Dark Arts a prerequisite for it to be cast.
ALTERNATIVELY, add Sole Survivor back into the game, but replace it's effect with something like "Restores own HP with a potency of 1000" (or whatever value the devs deem balanced), and make it a third option you can use Dark Arts on. So after you pop your TBN, you now have the option to choose between Edge for single target DPS, Flood for AoE DPS, or Sole Survivor where you lose the 460 potency of damage in a trade-off for a hefty self-heal. I know that I basically just designed Dark Knight flavour Clemency, but I think it would be an AMAZING change for the job.

[Ryaduera]

TBN Should have a 30s cooldown and merged with Oblation for a 7s shield and 10s 10% reduction and still give Dark Arts on a broken shield, but have its MP cost removed and have Dark Arts reworked to empower the DRK defensive tools instead. Each time a defensive tool is used with a charge of DA available, it automatically enhances it. You can lock the healing behind a broken TBN and implement other effects behind different defensive tools, the only catch is TBN has to break and you don't have a choice in when DA takes effect; it is always your next defensive.

Bring back Dark Passanger, put it on GCD and make it consume 15s of Darkside time. Put Abyssal Drain back on GCD and make it also consume 15s of Darkside. Obviously, neither ability can be used unless under the effects of Darkside.

That'll probably fix most issues, including the underperforming TBN. One I wish people would stop saying is so great when it really is the worst of the other tanks options. I'm also just BEGGING for interaction with our Darkside gauge. Why do we even have it?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

TBN Should have a30s cooldown and merged with Oblation for a 7s shield and 10s 10% reduction and still give Dark Arts on a broken shield, but have its MP cost removed and have Dark Arts reworked to empower the DRK defensive tools instead. Each time a defensive tool is used with a charge of DA available, it automatically enhances it. You can lock the healing behind a broken TBN and implement other effects behind different defensive tools, the only catch is TBN has to break and you don't have a choice in when DA takes effect; it is always your next defensive.

Bring back Dark Passanger, put it on GCD and make it consume 15s of Darkside time. Put Abyssal Drain back on GCD and make it also consume 15s of Darkside. Obviously, neither ability can be used unless under the effects of Darkside.

That'll probably fix most issues, including the underperforming TBN. One I wish people would stop saying is so great when it really is the worst of the other tanks options. I'm also just BEGGING for interaction with our Darkside gauge. Why do we even have it?

Jesus christ...

You DOUBLED the cooldown of TBN AND merged it with Oblation (removing most of the flexibility from them being split cooldowns and TBN being frequently available, especially when giving to other party members), then you have the gall to remove the MP cost which gives MP a minimum of nuance that keeps us from just emptying the entire MP pool for Edge of Shadow. Furthermore, you replace the MP reimbursement with a "enhances your next defensive tool", like what? I am supposed to work 30s or more in advance to break it (which is made harder thanks to your Oblation merge) so I can get the empowering effect for when it actually matters?

Please tell me you don't know what makes TBN strong without telling me you don't know what makes TBN strong, in fact your suggestion before getting a defensive enhancement (of which you named NONE so its all speculation) all you did was save me a button press of Oblation, which thank you I can do myself - and nerf TBN frequency, which matters MORE in high-end content and can be gamed more extensively there (double TBN on longer dots, double TBN in short time to handle various busters or high damage autos like in DSR). You made the whole package worse in a sorry attempt to powerscale the other CDs (which are 22-25s CD btw).

And you didn't even bother addressing the actual problem child of DRK dungeon mitigation.



This action at bare minimum needs to get the Addle treatment, meaning half of the magic reduction is also physical. Alternatively make it 10% magical, 10% generic mitigation (net -1%) or if we feel funny, just make it 20% generic mitigation - the short CD availability is the key strength here. This would solve the "lack" of DRK's dungeon mitigation since the other Extra CDs (Bulwark, Thrill of Battle, Camouflage) work effortlessly in dungeons and would allow for parity while keeping the niche alive.

TBN in it's current form is strong in the same way WAR's Thrill of Battle is strong for big single-hit busters for survival. As much as raw number calculations show that it is lagging behind when taking into account the regen and heals from the other short CDs, that is not what TBN is needed for and the gap can be closed in other ways - what you want to work on is Oblation, of which I suggest either a ~500 cure potency heal on effect expiration (like AST's exaltation) or a 4x 200-250p regen effect.

It is admirable you try to find solutions in AOE gcds for the sake of dungeon mitigation and sustain, but these will do nothing in a raid setting unless the single-target potency is competitive with other actions.

[Ryaduera]

Jesus christ...

Yes, because TBN is an overrated tool that has been used as a crutch to keep DRK in the dirt for far too long and it was a problem in EW that people didn't mind because it did significantly more damage but TBN has never had the uptime everyone pretends it does and it's time we stop acting like it has any place holding DRK defensives back just because it can be used every 15s in dungeons, when realistically in raid content it will only be used once every minute due to the MP nerfs and how it effects your DPS to need to use it twice. Its uptime rate is now significantly lower than it was before and its usecase is even smaller since you want to make sure you only use 1.

TBN has been bad for years but the MP changes make it's cooldown even less significant and giving Dark Mind the Addle treatment will not even begin to compensate for the objectively lower Mitigation numbers even based on magic damage because of how bad Oblation and TBN are designed to be. There is no reason for two bad skills to exist when they can merge and become one decent skill together.

[BigCheez]

Third eye?

What? Third eye is a mit. What does that have to do with risk/reward?

You know damage is coming. You press third eye. Where is the risk?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Yes, because TBN is an overrated tool that has been used as a crutch to keep DRK in the dirt for far too long and it was a problem in EW that people didn't mind because it did significantly more damage but TBN has never had the uptime everyone pretends it does and it's time we stop acting like it has any place holding DRK defensives back just because it can be used every 15s in dungeons, when realistically in raid content it will only be used once every minute due to the MP nerfs and how it effects your DPS to need to use it twice. Its uptime rate is now significantly lower than it was before and its usecase is even smaller since you want to make sure you only use 1.

TBN has been bad for years but the MP changes make it's cooldown even less significant and giving Dark Mind the Addle treatment will not even begin to compensate for the objectively lower Mitigation numbers even based on magic damage because of how bad Oblation and TBN are designed to be. There is no reason for two bad skills to exist when they can merge and become one decent skill together.

Again, your suggestion and borderline personal vendetta with these skills is that they are too weak therefore they need to be merged/reworked, but your suggestion to merge them is hot garbage and solves nothing about the mitigation budget. The HP shield is completely unchanged and now it is less flexible to be used, with a CD higher than Holy Sheltron / Bloodwhetting / Heart of Corundum for no good reason. It is a net nerf, both in practice and in potential. You can personally space out Oblation in 30s intervals and have that go three times if you space it out that way - and can choose to not pair it with TBN because you don't need to all the time and can toss it to a teammate (either of them). Your whole TBN suggestion is complete and utter whack and you have yet to provide what enhancements would even be available if you broke it. I can use these skills together on my own without this shitty merge, at my own discretion.

And at that point, just introduce Dark Arts as an actual action for mitigation enhancement and don't do this roundabout delayed mitigation enhancement if you need mitigation NOW AND NOT LATER.

The MP changes are bad in general and isn't an issue for TBN alone, but even with that in mind you can STILL spend 6000 MP on TBN in a short time frame if you pool it that way, making the cooldown not irrelevant. A good example for that recently is Mountain Fire from EX1, allowing you to shield both the first and the third hit for your turn. In Abyssos you could double TBN the dot busters to cover a fair bit of damage without heals. Your suggestion would just make this objectively worse from a mitigation standpoint.

I gave three potential suggestions for Dark Mind, of which you only addressed the bare minimum one, I could even give you a fourth one - readding Dark Dance which is basically just a physical copy of Dark Mind and shares a CD. The goal with that change was to provide additional mitigation in predominantly physical damage environments which is most dungeons and a fair share of raid fights (P11S if we discount the invulned Dike busters, P10S Harrowing Hell, DSR Heavenly Heel + Ascalon's Might, etc.).

I also suggested changes to Oblation in favour of sustain, which you completely ignored. You also mention "how it affects our DPS to need to use it twice", like do you have actual numbers for this? What would the total DPS loss amount to if you'd favour TBN breaks rather than pooling 5 EoS in raid buff windows?

Mind you, I have played DRK throughout the raid tiers since Stormblood 4.3 onward - and not once have I thought that my mitigation was weak, at most I had wished Dark Mind could be at least half-usable on physical damage. I have done many savage tiers when relevant and I do not shy from Ultimates, many allowing me to make use of the 15s CD quite handsomely.

I could almost forgive it if TBN was made so utterly bland like you suggested and interacted in zero ways with our damage (MP), if you'd at least up the numbers of the mitigation you so decry being inferior to other tanks, because double the CD for the HP shield (5s over other tank short CDs) and barely a gain in Oblation uptime (if used on cooldown) is not it chief.

[Ryaduera]

Again, your suggestion and borderline personal vendetta with these skills is that they are too weak therefore they need to be merged/reworked, but your suggestion to merge them is hot garbage and solves nothing about the mitigation budget. The HP shield is completely unchanged and now it is less flexible to be used, with a CD higher than Holy Sheltron / Bloodwhetting / Heart of Corundum for no good reason. It is a net nerf, both in practice and in potential. You can personally space out Oblation in 30s intervals and have that go three times if you space it out that way - and can choose to not pair it with TBN because you don't need to all the time and can toss it to a teammate (either of them). Your whole TBN suggestion is complete and utter whack and you have yet to provide what enhancements would even be available if you broke it. I can use these skills together on my own without this shitty merge, at my own discretion.

Firstly, I am not a developer, the best I've done is make some mods for some obscure games as a hobby and balance some things, but design is not what I do. This is a suggestion for design philosophy of feeding defensives into eachother which is better than a DPS loss if TBN doesn't break which is why TBN has the potential to be a DPS loss, I didn't think I'd have to spill random player-minded numbers and effects out as if I were the actual developer for the discussion of a concept that. You don't need th write all of that to say "I think this style of mechanic would be a benefit". Secondly, this hostility towards a suggestion from a fellow player is weird, it's okay to disagree, but settle down a little. And thirdly, in a thread actually about reworking defensives...

EDIT2: Okay my brain juices got flowing at the thought and I can't help myself, here's my pitch to rework DRK defensives.

Merge TBN and Oblation into one skill, 25% max health shield for 7 seconds and 10% damage reduction for 10 seconds on a 25 second cooldown. It costs 10 seconds off your Darkside timer (that's 2.4 TNBs in a 1 minute window, you'll consume 20-30s Darkside time a minute depending on timing). When the shield breaks, you gain Dark Arts. If the shield does not break, heal for 30% of the remaining shield value.

Dark Arts empowers your next defensive ability automatically. If used with Dark Mind you gain a 100% Parry Rate for 10 seconds as well as the 20% magic damage reduction.

If you use Shadowed Vigil with Dark Arts you give yourself an effect for 15 seconds that bursts in an area around you upon expiration and lowers all hit targets damage by 10% for 10 seconds.

If you have Dark Arts and use Dark Passenger (Missionary) you give yourself and your party a shield with a potency equivalent to 500 heal potency that can only absorb magical damage.

If you have Dark Arts and use TBN once again you gain an additional 5% max HP shielding

Give Dark Knight an all new skill, maybe keep the name of Oblation idk, but you can only activate it while Dark Arts is available. This skill heals you for a 300 potency with a 1s cooldown, but of course, you only have 1 charge of Dark Arts at a time so it's effectively a 25s cooldown.

Yeah I used different numbers, but all of it is pretty fluid in my head since I'm just a player not a dev and there's really any number of enhancements that could be provided as well as small gameplay changes. I also believe that 2 charges makes up for the 5 additional seconds as well, this is basically how PLD works, though PLD can recharge in 21ish seconds, but should you need to step away it slows the recharge of it. As Are you really using TBN every 15 seconds?

And at that point, just introduce Dark Arts as an actual action for mitigation enhancement and don't do this roundabout delayed mitigation enhancement if you need mitigation NOW AND NOT LATER.

The way it works is basically your first TBN is a bit weaker, which is pretty easy to proc and if you don't proc it you didn't need to in the first place, the first TBN in dungeons is always the easiest to break, the first TBN in raids is always easy to find an opportunity for, especially for raidwide damage.

The MP changes are bad in general and isn't an issue for TBN alone, but even with that in mind you can STILL spend 6000 MP on TBN in a short time frame if you pool it that way, making the cooldown not irrelevant. A good example for that recently is Mountain Fire from EX1, allowing you to shield both the first and the third hit for your turn. In Abyssos you could double TBN the dot busters to cover a fair bit of damage without heals. Your suggestion would just make this objectively worse from a mitigation standpoint.

You want every bit of MP damage usage to fit within a burst window, this includes Dark Arts, to maximize your DPS. If you are using TBN twice outside tour MP capping and your burst windows you have sacrificed some DPS which will vary by party, a crit or two aided by Battle Litany can add up in longer fights with tighter DPS checks, like early savage clears. THis is min-maxing but it's something a lot of players consider. It could also be addressed by adding multiple charges of DA as well, an easier fix that fits current design just fine. Is it a large discrepancy? No, but the discrepancy shouldn't exist since it comes from a defensive tool, not an offensive tool.

I gave three potential suggestions for Dark Mind, of which you only addressed the bare minimum one, I could even give you a fourth one - readding Dark Dance which is basically just a physical copy of Dark Mind and shares a CD. The goal with that change was to provide additional mitigation in predominantly physical damage environments which is most dungeons and a fair share of raid fights (P11S if we discount the invulned Dike busters, P10S Harrowing Hell, DSR Heavenly Heel + Ascalon's Might, etc.).

Because I'm not a developer, you are not my enemy, and the other ideas are fine. But I'm not going to look at a bad idea and pretend its good when DRK, even vs magic damage, still takes the most damage and we pretend it's okay because TBN exists even though it's directly holding the job back. Everything else is fine, didn't feel a need to comment, that's all.

I also suggested changes to Oblation in favour of sustain, which you completely ignored. You also mention "how it affects our DPS to need to use it twice", like do you have actual numbers for this? What would the total DPS loss amount to if you'd favour TBN breaks rather than pooling 5 EoS in raid buff windows?

I ignored this because there was no comment to make. It was a fine idea. Thumbs up. Didn't think that needed pointing out. Strange hostility here, but you do you. I've also suggested a HoT on Oblation before.

Mind you, I have played DRK throughout the raid tiers since Stormblood 4.3 onward - and not once have I thought that my mitigation was weak, at most I had wished Dark Mind could be at least half-usable on physical damage. I have done many savage tiers when relevant and I do not shy from Ultimates, many allowing me to make use of the 15s CD quite handsomely.

Weird flex but okay, let's play the "I played longer so I know more" game. Because that never gets old and is valid under all circumstances. Playtime means nothing for design knowledge and that goes for both of us.

That's awfully presumptions of you to say. Let's put it this way. I still have PTSD from Gordias Savage, so I don't want to hear "any content I've seen thus far". The server tick counting... Oh the horror... And Thordans eyes. Oh lord his eyes, no please god...

[EDIT] if you got that by looking at this characters job levels, this was a new character made to play with some friends on a different data center and is not indicative of my actual experience with this game, but I use this one because it is the one I will now exclusively use.

I could almost forgive it if TBN was made so utterly bland like you suggested and interacted in zero ways with our damage (MP), if you'd at least up the numbers of the mitigation you so decry being inferior to other tanks, because double the CD for the HP shield (5s over other tank short CDs) and barely a gain in Oblation uptime (if used on cooldown) is not it chief.

Flat damage reduction is king and amping up the Oblation uptime allows more room for it to be stacked (RIP Diminishing returns, but still) and increase the likelihood that you always have something available, which DRK pretty much just runs out of stuff.

EDIT: If we only double Oblations uptime in a 2 minute window and ignore all other potential changes it goes from (30x10)/120 for 2.5% damage reduction to 30s cooldown and 2 charges for 3 in the first 30 seconds then 2 mote (third falls on 2m mark being outside the 120 second limit) it becomes (50x10)\120 for 4.6% which brings it between GNB and PLD in mitigation, but also it spreads the damage that does happen over a longer period being easier to deal with overall. That's why percentage mitigations are king, it also spreads damage out over a longer period of time allowing more room for recovery as well. This is why GNB feels tankier than DRK even though DRK is technically taking less damage due to TBN. Of course this isn't enough, same goes for 10% physical reduction on Dark Mind, but the uptime is key.

[DaveFishnomer]

Why are you comparing oblation to the other tank's 25s CDs? TBN is your 25s CD and it has a shorter CD due to it having an MP cost. TBN having both an MP cost and a cooldown is fine IMO. It makes DRK unique compared to the other tanks and prevents the job from being completely braindead. IMO you should get bonus damage to the free edge/flood of shadows that you get when your TBN breaks though.

"MP management" isn't exactly some fickle art. You just dump edge of shadows into raid buffs and hold 3K for TBN if needed. Spend to avoid overcapping otherwise. You aren't supposed to have infinite MP. It isn't like PLD where you need a constant supply of MP to be able to do your GCD rotation. I don't understand why you're comparing DRK to PLD in this respect.

DRK has comparable sustain to GNB. It's more than enough to keep you up in a dungeon, you just can't solo like WAR can. I'm not sure why you're complaining that your invuln is good? Why do you have it if not to use it? DRK is fine in dungeons.

DRK does need potency buffs. It lost potency via some of the Dawntrail changes and didn't really get anything new to compensate for it. I imagine there will be potency buffs for DRK soon.

Agreed with all except that it has comparable sustain to GNB. DRK still has the lowest sustain of all tanks, which is fine IMO, though it just needs to increase potency.
Also the changes to living dead make it easier but kind of useless, I don't think I died once from living dead in DW, makes healers almost useless in this regard, at last in EW it had some punch to it, that 10s countdown was real, now it's just fluff.

[GoatOfWar]

What? Third eye is a mit. What does that have to do with risk/reward?

You know damage is coming. You press third eye. Where is the risk?

There's a lot of mechanics you can dipp into with third eye for a small Kenki gain. Including tankbusters and spreads.
Often followed by a raidwide that will kill you if you're not topped off. Hence, creating a risk of dying, and a reward for taking the risk anyways.