Dark Knight was bad even in Endwalker but

[EponaTBHSMH]

I think DRK is bad right now because the MP nerfs are a lot more impactful than streamers who do not play the job let on. -2400 MP between bursts plus slightly less from syphon strike due to +1 Bloodspiller and Disesteem. If you think DRK feels bad right now this is why.

If you're playing optimally, you get 3 uses of TBN between bursts.
But Dark Side is now a ticking clock that demands more MP from you at specific intervals, so unless those use cases of TBN line up perfectly with the boss, there's a good chance you'll be caught without it.
But if you want the most optimal play you need TBN to break at a very, very specific point in the now, so you can bring the maximum of 5 edges into the burst window. Not to early to overcap, not to late to not be able to get back up to max MP. This was easier to manage in Endwalker due to higher mp values.

The end result I'm finding is that you want to use TBN as little as possible to make this easier to optimize, or memorize the fight down to when you can perfectly break TBN without issue. So in a lot of cases DRK can't really freely use its short mit to shield itself anymore, let alone allies.

Do I think the devs will fix this come 7.05? lol no they dont care.

This is interesting, I will be doing just like what I did in Endwalker and test it to see how much worse it really got,because I was super disappointed by the doomposting I heard before I got DRK to 90 and realizing that its not actually bad

These TBN changes do seem rough though, though in the 2 instances Ive had to heal a DRK in DT so far, I didnt feel it to be so bad, maybe the 40% mit helps despite the MP nerf, ill report back when I get it to 100 myself and have a clearer opinion

[Ryaduera]

You and I are talking about different things then, I'm not interested in design philosophy of the job, player act is really the only thing that makes me decide if it's good or bad, you seem focused on the theory aspect of it

At the risk of repeating myself, survivability is something I consider exceptional, you care more about all the possibilities and the theorycrafting which is why frequency doesnt matter to you, we have different PoVs for this

There is no theorycrafting here, this is how game balance discussions are held in the workspace. People that say this random stuff and chuck everything up to "thinkspace" instead of practicality is why balance teams get a lot of heat from people that don't understand how game balance works and just how sensitive it is. It also most certainly looks like you're using "theorycrafting" as a cope because you can literally see the quantity of people that are displeased with DRK and its defensive abilities by just opening your eyes and accepting that these players are upset and that DRK is underperforming next to the other tanks. For the balance team, this should be the reddest of flags.

For the savage part, when it comes to simply clearing savage on PLD vs the other tanks, your analogy would be more correct if you compared running 1 mile in Adidas and running 1 mile in Nike's, which one would you choose?

Let me try again. You can have Italian Bread with Butter, or you can add Garlic and end up with Garlic Bread. Both are good, but Garlic Bread is... well, Garlic Bread.

I do understand much better where you're coming from now that you mentioned PF, and why you think damage types matter, but again this is PF. I do believe this is more of a placebo effect to convince oneself that we used the best combo and still wipe, it has the same energy as the double melee locking in PF or setting ilvl lock at crafted gear ilvl on day 1. Things are definitely different in a static setting

...What?

Player performance is the one that matters, you know that because you mentioned having to pick up slack for "less efficient players" but you will never be able to prove that in a specific PF switching from PLD to GNB will be the difference between a clear and a wipe because there are too many other factors such as other's people DPS

Not sure I understand this either... But if I do understand, my thoughts are that my play, the tank in question played a lot and encountered both good and bad groups on all tanks at all levels and ended up having wildly different experiences on DRK than I did the others. I don't see why the other players performance would effect any of my performance.

as DRK, you had to invuln but didn't need to inlvun? huh?? Also can you give me examples of dungeons where DRK cannot go at "WAR/PLD/GNB pace" cuz I feel like this is yet another misconception

You're leaving out details, probably intentionally to make me look worse, just to belittle a valid point. I used Invuln on Dark Knight because it was the only way to prevent GCD heals being necessary but my LD never proc'd because TLD is so poorly designed that the healers didn't notice it and GCD healed me anyway preventing it from triggering. There, fixed it for you.

My quote with AD was weird so you prolly misunderstood, AD is nowhere near being a powerful self heal at all, was mostly a tongue in cheek for people thinking DRK doesnt have any self heal,

I've never seen anyone say DRK has 0 self healing so your point is actually agreeing with people??? The most common suggestion I have seen is make AD a 30s cooldown, a direct acknowledgement of the value of AD.

which is why I called WAR/GNB/PLD very good tanks and DRK a good tank

How many times do I have to say it... This is what the problem is

And finally, I think you'd be surprised, some DRK really dont know their mit well, I'm not talking about people in this thread but those I meet in DF sometimes.

I would not be surprised. Years and years later, there are still people that don't know Arm's Length is a mitigation tool. I don't actually live under a rock and I do see other tanks in play.

If you still don't get it, you are willfully ignoring fact in order to support your own view of things, and if there is anything I know about any discussion it's that you cannot reason someone out of something they did not reason themselves into.

[EponaTBHSMH]

There is no theorycrafting here, this is how game balance discussions are held in the workspace.

You're the one that wants to drag this into a game balance discussion, my only point of view ever was always that DRK is not a bad tank, mitigation wise the other 3 are obviously superior and damage wise it seems to be 3rd place, might even get close to WAR when burst optimization will be set in stone just like in Endwalker

Let me try again. You can have Italian Bread with Butter, or you can add Garlic and end up with Garlic Bread. Both are good, but Garlic Bread is... well, Garlic Bread.

This analogy is already butter than the other one

Not sure I understand this either... But if I do understand, my thoughts are that my play, the tank in question played a lot and encountered both good and bad groups on all tanks at all levels and ended up having wildly different experiences on DRK than I did the others. I don't see why the other players performance would effect any of my performance.

If in savage, you have a pull on GNB where a DPS dies 3 times, and another pull on PLD where nobody dies, which one are you most likely to clear with?

You're leaving out details, probably intentionally to make me look worse

Nah I've been trying to have a fair discussion, you however were trying to slip in that you work in game balance earlier which I chose to ignore cuz that isnt relevant, I've also left out the whole LD is bad design or you being undergeared cuz those were offtopic and not even points I had raised

What I was trying to say here is that it shouldnt even get to the point where you have to be GCD healed or pop LD, if you're confident that the issue wasnt on your side and that you've properly mit'd then it might be on the healer side too, but whether you got healed and that Walking Dead didnt get triggered is a totally different matter.

I've never seen anyone say DRK has 0 self healing so your point is actually agreeing with people???

Fair enough!

How many times do I have to say it... this is what the problem is

Never said it wasn't, that's definitely not balanced. again was always about DRK not being bad, not that it didnt have worse mitigation than the other tanks

If you still don't get it, you are willfully ignoring fact in order to support your own view of things

You talk about ignoring facts while I'm here still just thinking that we're talking about different subjects altogether. it will be impossible to reason myself to DRK being bad in normal content until I run a dungeon, wall to wall a pull, use all my mitigation, the healer uses all of theirs, and I die or have to use LD, who knows, it might happen in DT I have yet to level it but healing it in Straybourough AND Tender Valley has to be a good benchmark

[GoatOfWar]

You're the one that wants to drag this into a game balance discussion, my only point of view ever was always that DRK is not a bad tank, mitigation wise the other 3 are obviously superior and damage wise it seems to be 3rd place, might even get close to WAR when burst optimization will be set in stone just like in Endwalker

War has absolutely no business outdpssing any tank.
It has the best invuln, the best party mit, the best sustain, and additional minor advantages such as an extra knockback resist and mobility. Hell, why does it still have guaranteed direct crits? So that it will consistently outperform objectively worse tanks? I'm sorry, but Dark knight sucks. There is a direct upgrade waiting to be played, and the pickrates reflect this. With Warrior rocking the pickrate of Drk and Pld combined.
If you're going to judge how good a job is, you have to meassure it against the alternative options that are available. To which Drk just falls completely flat because it got powercrept by streamer endorsed favouritism.
It's genuinely hillarious that they decided to just give War a 40 potency buff on a 1 minute cooldown, that now nearly matches Dark knight's big 2 minute cooldown gcd in potency.

[CKNovel]

This is interesting, I will be doing just like what I did in Endwalker and test it to see how much worse it really got,because I was super disappointed by the doomposting I heard before I got DRK to 90 and realizing that its not actually bad

These TBN changes do seem rough though, though in the 2 instances Ive had to heal a DRK in DT so far, I didnt feel it to be so bad, maybe the 40% mit helps despite the MP nerf, ill report back when I get it to 100 myself and have a clearer opinion

Yes, TBN has been massively hit by the changes.
Before DT you could easily stock 13.000 MP but now you're barely at risk of overcapping MP.
Which means, if you want to optimize DRK you'll do 1 TBN every 120s while in EW you could do 1 TBN every 60s.

This could be simply fixed if you could stack more than 1 dark art.

War has absolutely no business outdpssing any tank.
It has the best invuln, the best party mit, the best sustain, and additional minor advantages such as an extra knockback resist and mobility. Hell, why does it still have guaranteed direct crits? So that it will consistently outperform objectively worse tanks? I'm sorry, but Dark knight sucks. There is a direct upgrade waiting to be played, and the pickrates reflect this. With Warrior rocking the pickrate of Drk and Pld combined.

I don't think tank DPS should be balanced with their mitigation/survival. Those should be balanced independently.
If you think about DRK, most of the time criticism was dismissed because "Yeah but it does the most damage".

However, WAR garanteed crit are a lot, it reduces the RNG DPS gap between floor and ceiling by a lot. If all tanks did similar DPS, then WAR would automatically do the most in average.
Holmgang should still be changed as well, 5 minutes and give it a massive regen on top of it or something.

[GoatOfWar]

I don't think tank DPS should be balanced with their mitigation/survival. Those should be balanced independently.
If you think about DRK, most of the time criticism was dismissed because "Yeah but it does the most damage".

However, WAR garanteed crit are a lot, it reduces the RNG DPS gap between floor and ceiling by a lot. If all tanks did similar DPS, then WAR would automatically do the most in average.
Holmgang should still be changed as well, 5 minutes and give it a massive regen on top of it or something.

Why not? Otherwise they all end up becoming the exact same.
Basically, if they buffed Drk's healing a shitload it would be fair, but it would also make all the tanks identical.
I think utility should 100% be weighed into a job's balance. And this is true for other jobs as well. Red mage notoriously being behind BLM because BLM has no utility.
Or Sam arbitrarily being at the top because it has no utility beyond Feint.
Why is it easy for people to understand the logic there, but not when it comes to tanks?

[Kaixern]

If you think about DRK, most of the time criticism was dismissed because "Yeah but it does the most damage".

This is one of the thing i hate the most, it was impossible to have a logical conversation about the state of tanks, especially DRK.

In a way i am happy DRK is not the tank with the biggest dps anymore (at least at the moment) because now it's impossible to hide the flaws.

[GoatOfWar]

This is one of the thing i hate the most, it was impossible to have a logical conversation about the state of tanks, especially DRK.

In a way i am happy DRK is not the tank with the biggest dps anymore (at least at the moment) because now it's impossible to hide the flaws.

It was never impossible to hide the ''flaws''.
The flaws made it different. And it had different advantages. If you want it's defensive toolkit buffed why not just play literally any other tank?
It's the same with people crying about Drk's APM in EW when that was literally the entire selling point of the job.
I don't understand why people insist on playing a job that they do not like when there are jobs that meet their criteria?
Making everything the same is not the answer.

[Kaixern]

It was never impossible to hide the ''flaws''.
The flaws made it different. And it had different advantages. If you want it's defensive toolkit buffed why not just play literally any other tank?
It's the same with people crying about Drk's APM in EW when that was literally the entire selling point of the job.
I don't understand why people insist on playing a job that they do not like when there are jobs that meet their criteria?
Making everything the same is not the answer.

(Just to be sure, i wasn't putting stuff like dark mind being magical only or having high apm in the flaw category, for me this belonged more to the class identity of DRK)

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

Tanks can have different strengths and weaknesses that come up at different points in a fight.

DRK just doesn't really have a strength anymore, if you're lucky they'll have a big magical TB to kitchen sink and then you're the WAR bought from Wish .com for the rest of the fight.