The healer issue? I really dunno what to put here.

[Mr_Gyactus]

I'm assuming you haven't hit 100 yet, so you wouldn't have access to our 2 minute barrier, but even without that, you're missing proper CD rotation with "PI is a 60 second CD." Because you can rotate the Lily with PI, Assize, Asylum, or even your 2 minute CD to just instantly fill bars. You will always have something to top people off, outside of mistakes, and even then, a Thin Air Medica 3, will give you a nice cushion for the couple people who ate something. Also, while a 3 minute DC, our Lilybell is extremely powerful at topping people off for multihits, or can be triggered manually for a massive burst.

And as others have posted, you're missing the cross class skills we used to have access to, as well as Fluid Aura.

Thunder was removed after 2.1. It was clearly an error. Cleric stance was a "buff/debuff", not an ability dealing damage.
Fluid aura: I forgot this spell. it was a 150atk, 5yalm range with 30s cd and a very boring pushback. Even if you think it was good (a free attack) it required to go in melee range. Situational.
The cross class: probably you don't remember anymore because 10 years are gone or you weren't with us, but the 5 abilities taken were all debuff (like eye x eye) + swiftcast-surecast or something to improve your defense.
In short: as White Mage I used stone, and sparingly, because MP management was an issue.


Let's return on topic. If you write "because you can use this and that..." well, this means lily aren't enough anymore and this is exactly what I wrote.
In DT we are forced to use EVERY ability we got, and do not waste them. As you wrote you need 2-3 different abilities or you fail.

Anyway:
Lily + PI << Cure III + PI;
Asylum right now is bad. SE should add duration time OR (even better) potency (100->150/200).
Don't get the thin air. Maybe you meant swiftcast?

[FemmeFatale]

There was no strike, next question.

[Isala]

Thunder was removed after 2.1. It was clearly an error. Cleric stance was a "buff/debuff", not an ability dealing damage.
Fluid aura: I forgot this spell. it was a 150atk, 5yalm range with 30s cd and a very boring pushback. Even if you think it was good (a free attack) it required to go in melee range. Situational.
The cross class: probably you don't remember anymore because 10 years are gone or you weren't with us, but the 5 abilities taken were all debuff (like eye x eye) + swiftcast-surecast or something to improve your defense.
In short: as White Mage I used stone, and sparingly, because MP management was an issue.


Let's return on topic. If you write "because you can use this and that..." well, this means lily aren't enough anymore and this is exactly what I wrote.
In DT we are forced to use EVERY ability we got, and do not waste them. As you wrote you need 2-3 different abilities or you fail.

Anyway:
Lily + PI << Cure III + PI;
Asylum right now is bad. SE should add duration time OR (even better) potency (100->150/200).
Don't get the thin air. Maybe you meant swiftcast?

Blizzard II was a cross class, often used in place of how expensive Holy was, to do damage, and also bind. And trust me. I remember. We literally had a very in depth conversation about this in another thread, including how Scholar used to have access to Aero.

And we're not really forced, but you mentioned needing to meet the increased heals. If we really want to get into the weeds with this, in the sort of content we're talking about, we can leave the DPS at not cap, and also your Cure III example is a waste. It's DPS negative, compared to using a Lily instead. And no, I meant Thin Air, because nothing else in our toolkit has such a high MP cost, so burning it on the 1k MP spell is pretty much where all of my TA charges would go. I tend to leave one up for any sort of "OOPSIE" on the DPS side.

And this is just WHM we're talking about. This isn't the other classes, like SCH, that can just straight up let Eos top people off after an Indom. Numerically, the dungeons might hit slightly harder, but it still hasn't changed a single thing about how mindnumbingly boring it is to spam 1 until an AoE happens, and then popping an oGCD, or DPS positive Lily on WHM.

[LuciferMournstar]

Eh I like playing healer just fine, and I've been healing since 2.0 and main healer every patches. Is there room for improvement? Sure. The strike ... well, idk how big that is, I can tell virtually I can see no impact in game in term of healer participation. I always said I wish the healer strike is real because it means I'll have more "Adventure in need", but I'm not seeing that.

If you want a two words summary: Green DPS. That's what they want.

I read through the whole thread, and I have to agree with this right here. I played AST up to 54, and SCH up until Level 60, but I had enough. It was constant whining about my "low DPS", even though nobody died in raids / Ex / dungeons. I'm a healer, not a DPS. My job is to make sure you stay alive, not do high damage. That should be at the level of "Just try to do bare minimum, not your department." To me this strike is nothing more than a lot of healers wanting to flex on DPS numbers and gatekeep, so they can brag percentile numbers along with tanks and DPS.

Adding to more strict and needed heals is fine, but forget the DPS rotation. I can't tell you how many times a raid or ex wipe happened because healers "Sorry, I got focused on my DPS". You know, when their whole damn job was to keep everyone alive. WHM with Cleric Stance comes to mind the most, what a nightmare.

[gllt]

Just give me something to do in leveling roulette while I'm helping other people get through MSQ and for the love of God do not tell me any gameplay in the game is "supposed to be boring" and do not conflate interesting and fun with hard. It should not be mind numbing to heal people in content required to progress through the game and it needing to be content anyone can clear should also not get in the way of making it fun.

[Connor]

. My job is to make sure you stay alive, not do high damage.

Is someone gonna tell him?

it’s not

[ForsakenRoe]

Adding to more strict and needed heals is fine, but forget the DPS rotation. I can't tell you how many times a raid or ex wipe happened because healers "Sorry, I got focused on my DPS". You know, when their whole damn job was to keep everyone alive. WHM with Cleric Stance comes to mind the most, what a nightmare.

Aw go on, give it a go. See if you can remember how many times (even an estimate) a healer let you die specifically citing their DPS as the reason for the death, because I expect it's a lot lot lower than you (and everyone who has also said 'the line') think it was. We're more likely to remember the 'bad things' that happened rather than all the times things go 'as expected' so I expect there's a lot of confirmation bias at work.

Say you remember 25 distinct times where this happened. Was that 25 runs out of 500? 1000? 10000? 50000??? How are we meant to know that 'oh healers having more damage actions would cause problems, like in the past' when the evidence it happened in the past is effectively 'idk just trust me bro it happened'?

As for 'My job is to make sure you stay alive, not do high damage', that depends on the content. If you're in content which doesn't care how much damage you do, then I don't care how much damage you do. If you're in content with an enrage timer, where the game itself expects you to pull your weight DPS-wise, then I too will expect you to deal damage, to exactly the extent that the game expects it. If you have a problem with being demanded to deal damage, that's SE's fault and you can take it up with them

[ZephyrMenodora]

Healers supporting the strike primarily want to be heard, feeling ignored for years. I think to me, it's the primary success of the strike. Overall, healers supporting the strike want healer gameplay to be more interesting than pressing 1 button repeatedly as most of their actions. This is pretty much all they agree on, and after that they disagree as to how.

Some want harder healing due to increased damage output from enemies.
Some want more buffs/debuffs/support.
Some want more cleanses.
A good number seem to want less healing skills and a dps rotation.
Some want a combination of everything.

A lot of the discussions had been had before, and are here again. But this time they actually seem to be getting real attention from more than just the EN forums they seem to ignore.

[Doriann]

If 50% of the role is supposed to be damage dealing (and it's arguably more than 50%), they should have a more interesting dps rotation. Dia > Glare*10 > repeat isn't very engaging.

This comment basically summarizes why so many people who have healers as their main/favorite classes are upset with the state of the game since Shadowbringers came: We are pressing 2 buttons most of the time, sometimes a third or fourth button here and then, most of the time.

To understand "why" this happened you would need to look back into Stormblood. WHM was the most straightforward healer, it had Stone, Aero 2 and Aero 3 (AoE) in addition to Holy. Not many changes from now. AST was busy most of the time juggling cards and fetching the damage boost one (Arrow? I can't remember), it's main advantage was that it could AoE from a distance (Gravity) in addition to spamming buffs on everyone. SCH was the one who mostly played like a "third DPS", because it had access to so many damaing tools: Miasma 2 (AoE damage over time), Shadow Flare (a pool that did damage over time) and Miasma 3. Before Stormblood they all also had access to Thunder, due to cross-class abilities, and Cleric Stance, a permanent damage buff (in detriment of losing healing power), which gave rise to stance dancing.

So in Stormblood, we had more or less:

WHM: 2 single target damaging abilities + 2 AOE
AST: 2 single target + 2 AoE (with stellar explosion)
SCH: 3 single target (with Energy Drain) + 2 AoE

Then Shadowbringers came, and while that is arguably one of the best final fantasy games to date, it was really detrimental to how healers played, especially SCH, who went from being "Summoner with a fairy and some shields" to a Broil spammer (before SHB, SMN's gameplay was centered around damage-over-time spells).

Personally, I've been playing as a healer since 2.0 when we were complaining about server latency during hard mode Titan, and from SHB onwards healers have never felt more redundant and boring to play, it's a combination of lack of engaging gameplay on the damaging side (since all roles are expected to contribute to damage) to having too much mitigation everywhere. Most healers are healing with abilities outside the GCD, so we have to spend the rest of the time doing something else, which is pressing Broil/Glare to infinity. Either give us the old "DPS rotation" in Stormblood (they will never do this) or force us to spend most of our GCDs pressing healing spells instead (this will also not happen)

[LuciferMournstar]

Aw go on, give it a go. See if you can remember how many times (even an estimate) a healer let you die specifically citing their DPS as the reason for the death, because I expect it's a lot lot lower than you (and everyone who has also said 'the line') think it was. We're more likely to remember the 'bad things' that happened rather than all the times things go 'as expected' so I expect there's a lot of confirmation bias at work.

Say you remember 25 distinct times where this happened. Was that 25 runs out of 500? 1000? 10000? 50000??? How are we meant to know that 'oh healers having more damage actions would cause problems, like in the past' when the evidence it happened in the past is effectively 'idk just trust me bro it happened'?

As for 'My job is to make sure you stay alive, not do high damage', that depends on the content. If you're in content which doesn't care how much damage you do, then I don't care how much damage you do. If you're in content with an enrage timer, where the game itself expects you to pull your weight DPS-wise, then I too will expect you to deal damage, to exactly the extent that the game expects it. If you have a problem with being demanded to deal damage, that's SE's fault and you can take it up with them

As yes, "Let's argue semantic numbers because I don't want to refute the point it happens" excuse. Everyone knows it happened quite often, and everyone knows it'll happen more often if healer DPS checks get increased and made more complex. Yeah, everyone is expected to contribute to the DPS, my point is healer should be the least expected, and focus on healing and keeping people alive. Stop pretending people are stupid and don't see what ya'll want. You want ego stroking and gatekeeping on logs. This isn't the first game I've played where people used the "We're bored" excuse, so they could convince the developers to make ways they can grandstand.