Lyse vs. Wuk Lamat

[Isala]

Oh really? Erenville and his mom's arc is mishandled because Wuk Lamat? Wuk barely has dialogue or input the entire LM map. I almost forgot she was there. Is it Wuk Lamat's fault that Krile's parenthood arc is laughably mishandled to the point of being a little offensive? Wuk Lamat herself has a parenthood story but it also doesn't really say anything and doesn't seem cohesive. It's just emotional for the sake of being emotional. It's Wuk Lamat's fault we get like one conversation with Gulool Ja?

You were so close to getting it. Literally anything that doesn't revolve around Wuk Lamat herself was halfassed. Of course we don't go into her parenthood story. That involves someone else, and isn't showing us how COOL and AWESOME Wuk Lamat is. Giving her an actual backstory? Nope. We don't do that with self inserts. That takes away time from them being the most important character ever, and we can't do that by showing them as a kid.

[ClayyLmao]

And yet, in HW the antagonists we face were beyond Aymeric and Ishguard - Ascians, Primals (Remember post-Thordan "Who are you?" line from the elf pope?) and Great Wyrm himself.

In ShB its the same. Zenos couldn't care less about Lyse and Ala Mhigo resitance, only we can fight him and Shinryu.

WoL takes center stage as a hero in all expansions but DT where are the sidekick and primary credit goes to Wuk Lamat.

We could've had this in DT too. Sphene teleports everyone else away and it's up to us to beat her, because at the end of the day, while other people can take the spotlight, we're supposed to be the protectors of the world. But no, Wuk has to inexplicably find a way to fly through cyberspace, break through Sphenes barrier and then do exponentially more damage than us in a fraction of the time. The ending could've been so much better if Wuk showed up in the cutscene after the fight to talk to a defeated Sphenebot instead of literally standing on a platform between us and the boss, literally at the front and center.

[koichiresh]

I've explained this in other places, but Writing 101 is to not replace your main characters with an unestablished character, and do NOT establish said characters at the expense of your main characters.

Take, for instance, the Lord of the Rings. That series has several secondary characters, some of which get even more time than Frodo and Sam. But the series took the time to flesh them out before that point. You know Gandalf, Pippin, and Merry. You understand Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli. They don't just drop a random dude on you, and push the characters you've known into the background.

That is Wuk Lamat in a nutshell. To use a different comparison, let's use the Harry Potter series. It seems like a fitting comparison. 7 books, and DT is 7.0. Let's say you read 6 books, all about Harry's adventures, and struggles to defeat Voldemort. Book 7, is suddenly about a character mentioned in a single chapter at the end of book six. And in book 7, Harry has almost no lines, has almost no interaction with the plot, and only exists to make this new character look good. Oh, and of course, the new character gets the killing blow on Voldemort, because of course they do.

I do understand this point, it is a bit jarring when your main character is the center of the spotlight for so long, and then all of a sudden they aren't. But the way that you describe is how stories are generally written indeed. I think we are forgetting one big factor in this whole argument... it's an MMORPG. A world with many stories. Characters. Backstories. Nations. Factions. The list can go on. It should feel like many important people exist in the world outside of your existence. Do we feel like we're in a world or in a monologue?

Even the free-to-play MMORPGs I would frequent in my youth did not feel so empty or so unbalanced in importance. I really don't enjoy the feeling of being the big cosmic protector tbh because now going forward all of the dialogue options will give a cheeky option for us saving the star from destruction.

But, maybe see that's the thing. This is just a personal opinion and preference, but having the story revolving around your character being the center of attention will eventually fall flat, especially in an MMORPG
And this can be seen not only in the story but also in the game itself. We can solo the MSQ 90% of the game without community (which remember, used to not be the case as the Trust system didn't exist in the beginning).

Unless you do extreme or savage content, outside of that, you're on a solo adventure that doesn't give purpose to the other players in the world. It's all about you essentially.

So to me, when Wuk Lamat was utilized in a way that felt like we weren't the main character it doesn't do those stories justice from an overall view because we've done it all. Remember, we are playing a massively multiplayer game in a fantasy setting with various people. I wish I could feel normal again... like every player has something to say, not just mine. (again, just my preference)

Was it jarring to set it up immediately after saving the star? Absolutely. Was I mad because it confirmed that other characters can take center stage? Of course not, even if the delivery wasn't the best.

[Turtledeluxe]

You were so close to getting it. Literally anything that doesn't revolve around Wuk Lamat herself was halfassed. Of course we don't go into her parenthood story. That involves someone else, and isn't showing us how COOL and AWESOME Wuk Lamat is. Giving her an actual backstory? Nope. We don't do that with self inserts. That takes away time from them being the most important character ever, and we can't do that by showing them as a kid.

You already got it. Anything not involving her is indeed half assed, by choice of the writers. Wuk Lamat's character actions are not what make LM undercooked. They're not what make the beast tribes flat and boring. My point is that outside combat, the expansion is pretty average whether you remove Wuk or anyone from the story.

I remembered Yoshi said he wanted to be able to tell the story faster because 10 years to finish an arc is too long, and we definitely felt that in EW with how abdrupt and fast Zodiac was resolved. It's the samething in DT where it feels the first and second half are 2 separated stories got mashed into one. So it's actually amazing that they managed to make a "compressed" story feel dragged instead of rushed. It's because instead of using their limited time to expand and say new interesting things, the characters prefer to use their screen time to recited the same line for the upteenth time over.

Indeed. I just don't understand. Is it a creative decision, a budgetary constraint, an accessibility feature? It's baffling to me that someone played through that MSQ and said it was great. If i have to talk to 3 more villagers or follow someone around one more time, I may just watch the story on YouTube.

[koichiresh]

Why are you assuming anyone with issues played XI and were okay with things there? I didn't play XI. I did play WoW which did the similar sidelining while the NPC did all the interesting things. I hated it. In this game, being the catalyst of the story events gives me a connection to the story I never got in WoW. And I went into this expansion perfectly okay to take on a mentor role. But then they didn't even have us mentor in anything. We were just there and when I can replace my character with a nodding cardboard cutout then it takes me as a player completely out of the story.

I was never under the assumption that things were okay, but a lot of people stand by FFXI's storytelling despite its age. Of course, there will be hardware limitations to an older title.
But see, neither you nor I have played the game which is why I asked a genuine question. I'm not stating it's better or worse, but the idea of MMORPGs has evolved with what people want within storytelling.

[Ramiee]

Heavensward felt more like an adventure than Dawntrail. Dawntrail feels like a tour.

[ClayyLmao]

-snip-

This condescension is wild. We've been the side character a number of times throughout the story and it's never been received this poorly. Nobody was mad when Estinien and Ysayle took center stage during an arc of Heavensward, or when Aymeric and the Fortemps were the focus of most of the HW post-game. No one was upset when we went to Doma and Hien, Yugiri and Gosetsu took the focus, and nobody was mad when Lyse and Raubahn took focus in Gyr Abania, no matter how much the DT cultists want to gaslight us into believing everyone hated that part.

The thing is is that none of those times made us feel completely irrelevant and entirely like an observer. We were there as an ally, and actually helping them achieve their goals. For the entirety of Dawntrail we're literally just there to see everything happening, and to save Wuk from getting kidnapped one time, which turns out to be superfluous, considering an hour later she's able to hold her own against Valigarmanda and an hour after that she's able to completely solo her kidnapper and all of his goons. If we weren't there, Wuk would've been 100% fine. Thancred still would've found her after she was kidnapped even if she wasn't able to break out herself. That's what people are upset about. It's not that Wuk is the center of attention, it's that we're entirely irrelevant to the plot. If we didn't help fight Valigarmanda then Wuk, Koana, Zoraal Ja and the scions would've been 100% fine. Same thing with Vanguard, and the Everkeep. If we weren't there, nothing would've changed. We played absolutely no part in any part of the story that Wuk was around for. The only time we made an impact was when we were in Shaaloani without her, and when we delayed Sphene for long enough for Wuk to show up and Wuk all over her with Talk no Jutsu.

[Hallarem]

I hated Lyse and I hated how they used her in the story.

I don't hate Wuk Lamat, but like almost every character in Dawntrail I hate how they used them, including Wuk Lamat, the writing is just bad and badly paced.

[koichiresh]

This condescension is wild. We've been the side character a number of times throughout the story and it's never been received this poorly. Nobody was mad when Estinien and Ysayle took center stage during an arc of Heavensward, or when Aymeric and the Fortemps were the focus of most of the HW post-game. No one was upset when we went to Doma and Hien, Yugiri and Gosetsu took the focus, and nobody was mad when Lyse and Raubahn took focus in Gyr Abania, no matter how much the DT cultists want to gaslight us into believing everyone hated that part.

How was I even being condescending by bringing up storytelling technicalities in an MMORPG? As someone in the game industry, I have seen numerous times where game development teams scratch their heads when game technicalities place barriers to a story from being told in the right way.

In the end of the day, all of our opinions are opinions believe it or not. That's how art and storytelling work. Some of you are speaking as if your opinions are facts rather than recognizing that your perspective will be different than the next.

And to your point, once it's revealed that we are a Warrior of Light that's kind of where, in my opinion, the story, as a whole, has its faults. And to be honest, I did eye roll at various points within the previous expansions when the cast continually introduced me as someone to be reckoned with or as the warrior of light. Just because you didn't have a problem with the story didn't mean they weren't flawed or other people didn't enjoy them. Going into DT, we have already faced a world destroyer at the edge of the universe. How is there any room to grow after that point or allow any other characters to shine? I felt like the whole cast was put on the back burner. The FFXIV team will most likely be running into a lot of issues trying to set up new stories going forward, I can guarantee you. To me, that's an issue with the plot, not just directly the characters.

As to the original point of this thread, Lyse vs Wuk, to me, they really aren't the issue. It's the writing.

[Turtledeluxe]

I hated Lyse and I hated how they used her in the story.

I don't hate Wuk Lamat, but like almost every character in Dawntrail I hate how they used them, including Wuk Lamat, the writing is just bad and badly paced.

I feel the same. I liked Wuk Lamat, but when the writers just made her endlessly repeat herself it made her less interesting. Every five minutes it's about understanding someone or father's peace. The character is fine, but the plot/writing/pacing has issues that no one in the cast makes better.

It's kind of like enjoying a VA but not liking their direction in a particular IP.