Lyse vs. Wuk Lamat

[Nadda]

You guys do realize we are in the New World... For Wuk Lamat.

You guys are saying you don't like the focus around the central character who is the whole reason we're there in the first place.

Specially for those of you claiming the arrogance of Writing 101.

An unestablished character with no development so called.

Is being established and developed before your very eyes.

You guys don't even question the necessity of having all the scions along.
What further development are characters with 10 years of development supposed to have exactly?

The Twins should have stayed in Garlemald. There is no reason for them to be here.
Y'shtola up until the invasion should have stayed wherever she was.
The only cardinal sin - was Graha staying behind on our "next adventure" the thing he wanted to do with us.
Kriles catharsis is softlocked to the ending but it's not as though it wasn't getting its proper focus.
Esitinien always plays the JRPG role of Strong character who joins your party at the end which admittedly this time was baited too long so his reintroduction was shortlived.
Thancred and Urianger are focused enough plenty as is Koana - They are the opposing team. i.e. we're not supposed to see them.
And the only reason to see them is to allow you to know more about Koana while at the same time soft hint he's gonna be more of a good guy than a bad guy.

Erenville and his unexplained angst. That's the only thing that isn't really explored or explained.

So what's the character we're supposed to focus on and develop otherwise?

Which is the one?
Zarool Ja? Why? outside Wuk Lamats sibling relationship there's not much there to explore - he's a complete stoic.
Bakool Jaja? The giant 10 ft lizard equivalent of Gary Oak (with a penchant for kidnapping and releasing powerful demigods)

But like seriously where was the focus supposed to be other than Wuk Lamat. Your literal and physical - Call to adventure. Unlike other central figures your Aymerics, your Lyse/Hien, Crystal Exarch (while being a call to adventure is relegated to the crystal tower)/Ryne,
Most of the Scions arcs, Are done. They are 10 years of complete characters by now.
What's there to learn?

Better yet when wasn't Wuk Lamat supposed to be there? It's not during the Succession Contest, how are you supposed to write a story of a character coming into their own, if you relegate them to the background.
Like seriously imagine the corrination ceremony where we spent a quest collecting firewood with Alphinaud.
Or if the story focused more on Krile the whole time.
"I'm here because of my Granddad, Boy I sure hope I can find out more about my Granddad; Do you think this Earing makes me look cute? It was from my Granddad, You know I'm hoping we can find out more about my Grandad, Nobody seems to know anything about my Grandad or this earing how sadge amirite?"

Again Krile is a very mature fully formed individual and her questions are brought up at the right times to the right people like a rational adult. You're on a quest to help Wuk Lamat.
But apparently having her as the central focus makes no sense to some of you.

I can properly think of where Wuk Lamats character doesn't really work.
And that's post killing Zarool Ja. Once we got to go to the "Golden City aka Unlost city aka Living Memory" to defeat Sphene to stop all this craziness once and for all. Wuk Lamat didn't need to be there.
Unlike Zarool Ja, this isn't a family affair. If Wuklamat doesn't appear then Yshtola whose whole goal post scions is to explore the many different shards and worlds makes more sense... And I don't even like Yshtola. Bringing along a strong guy like Estinien makes sense also.

Wuk Lamat at the end. Zero sense.

But other than that which is what. 10 or 11 quests. Wuk Lamat's presence throughout the story was completely warranted. Maybe Erenville could have been written better to bounce off as a character or understand why he's being such a angsty fussy bun-bun the whole time, but as soon as Koana starts getting developed as a character, Erenville's whole gravitas as Wuk Lamat's straight man (comedic term) disappears. Hell we don't even really get a reaction from him when Wuk Lamat gets kidnapped in fact I think he mosey on ahead to the next zone. Like wtf was his problem? But that's not Wuk Lamats fault that happened. It's the writers fault for leaving a thread and then doing nothing with it the whole expansion.

Like the most unangsty Erenville is - is about 5 minutes into Shaaloni before he's angsty again... then when the dome goes down genuinely being concerned <- widest range of emotion shown... followed by being angsty again. Both immediately suspecting his mother is dead (can't remember her name that's how forgettable she was) exacerbates things by lying, then Erenville has like a twilight zone moment where he discovers "oh my gawd... My Mother IS DEAD!?" Like he was the first one to suspect anything his mother gaslights him into thinking it's a robot being piloted at a distance.

So if anything Erenville is the poorly written character for this expansion especially since he took on the narration role.

Wuk Lamat brought us there to help her become Dawnservant for her peoples sake.
If you compare that to Lyse whom we are with the whole time, For one thing, Lyse herself is a completely unestablished character with no development, the girl has been pretending to be her dead sister for years. I don't know who Lyse is. I know who Yda was... or who Lyse pretending to be Yda was.

Then is thrust into a leadership position, then as the stakes are at their highest we knee-capped it for an excursion into fantasy Japan to help them stop the evil foreigners (boy I wonder what era of fantasy Japan... This is supposed to be) Matthew C. Perry told them they couldn't be an isolationist country. So we help Japanese Aymeric (Hien) relight the banners of Gondor and save his people from the clutches of the evil Westerners so he can help us do a Pearl Harbor in Ala Mhigo later. This results in Lyse becoming the leader of Ala Mhigo a role thrust upon her she's not prepared for. She doesn't learn any lessons and most of the time is complaining to disillusioned and desperate people that they can't give up! Because Garlemald is bad!

(And I liked Stormblood and Lyse, Yall are making me look at this stuff the most mean-spirited way because you're not giving Wuk Lamat a chance, At least Wuk Lamat wanted to become Dawnservant, She's not smart but she understands the consequences of what can happen if other people become the Dawnservant, which would ruin her Father's legacy.)

Our major villains in Stormblood are a dominatrix who doesn't get development until 4.x (almost kills my favorite character from the whole expansion Gosetsu)
And Zenos whom at the time and many still do consider him to be one of the worst villains we've had of all time (these aren't even my sentiments of the story - But I pay attention to what fans complain about)


Sigh* TL;DR

So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings

[TaleraRistain]

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.

Why are you assuming anyone with issues played XI and were okay with things there? I didn't play XI. I did play WoW which did the similar sidelining while the NPC did all the interesting things. I hated it. In this game, being the catalyst of the story events gives me a connection to the story I never got in WoW. And I went into this expansion perfectly okay to take on a mentor role. But then they didn't even have us mentor in anything. We were just there and when I can replace my character with a nodding cardboard cutout then it takes me as a player completely out of the story.

[ClayyLmao]

I couldn't stand Lyse for the entirety of Stormblood. She never seemed to grow, and she was rewarded for this lack of growth by getting everything she wanted; groups who didn't see eye-to-eye with her eventually agreed that Lyse was actually right, those who didn't do it Lyse's way were punished, and Lyse was awarded the highest ranking military position despite demonstrating terrible leadership skills.

You spelled Wuk and Dawntrail wrong through this entire section btw

[Fawkes]

Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.

Not exactly. While the overall story in an FFXI expansion would be about the Heroine, your story would usually only briefly intersect with her at key moments. She wasn't with you the whole time or overshadowing you in cutscenes, you were usually off doing the grunt work for some friend of her assistant. Somebody needs an old tablet from the Temple of Uggalepih to find out more about a prophecy or whatever? That's your job. And also fighting the ghost that pops when you click on it. And when you get back you get a cutscene where the Heroine shows up and tells you what she's been up to, but then you split up again. You'd usually become closer to her as the story progressed and eventually be considered her friend and your role in the story would get more and more important, until the final boss fight where you team up with her.

Also, I doubt anybody ever would've felt sidelined because doing the actual content was a feat unto itself. Even if the cutscene was lame you felt great for having actually gotten past any boss. The game was pretty hard and getting a group together was even harder. Sometimes you'd wipe just walking through the world to get to the boss arena (especially in CoP).

[Isala]

So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings

Your analogy falls flat when almost every book in that series focuses on a different main character. The magician's nephew wasn't about the four. Neither was Prince Caspian, A Horse and his Boy, or even the Silver Chair.

[MoofiaBossVal]

Lyse is palatable because she has spent most of her life outside of the Ala Mhigo territory where men are condemned to either be drafted or to toil in poverty. Lyse has spent her life in Eorzea where there is freedom and relative prosperity, so her coming into Stormblood and having difficulty understanding the mindset of the people is understandable. There was also no expectation that she was supposed to become their leader either. Also, Lyse is not the main character of the story, so anything unlikeable about her can be overlooked because there are other likeable characters like Raubahn, Hien, Gosetsu, etc.

Wuk Lamat is an adult princess who apparently does not even know basic information about the land she seeks to rule over, and we are expected to install her as ruler from the get go. Also, the story heavily revolves around her, so if you don't like her then that sucks since she has so much screentime.

[Nadda]

Your analogy falls flat when almost every book in that series focuses on a different main character. The magician's nephew wasn't about the four. Neither was Prince Caspian, A Horse and his Boy, or even the Silver Chair.

Not when Prince Caspian came out. Prince Caspian is the second book released after Lion Witch and the Wardrobe.

Magicians Nephew was the sixth book released. It's a prequel in a sense to before the Lion Witch and the Wardrobe.

But I digress the analogy stands quite well within the confines of my argument.

[Reimmi]

I don't understand the hyper focus on Wuk Lamat. Whether it's Koana, Zoraal Ja, Bakool Ja Ja, Ketenramm, I can't even remember Erenville's mom's name, etc. You're talking about all the same things. And the few times they do come up against challenges or have development, it's so ham fisted and cliche.

This fanbase has a weird obsession with criticizing female characters and comparing female characters.

Bakool Ja Ja gets away with releasing a deadly beast...we turn off the Endless just because Erenville's mom wants to and thinks it might help defeat Sphene (it doesn't and who would even think that?)...Zoraal Ja gets disqualified but just goes into a room and steals and artifact...dawntrail just sucks guys, I'm sorry.

Wuk lamat is 95% of the screen time this expansion.
It should not be surprising she's the majority of criticism with Dawntrails writing

[MoofiaBossVal]

You guys do realize
So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings

Caspian was not unlikeable, and the expectations were different. Caspian was educated by the secretly Narnian tutor so he wasn't an utter incompetent, and was destined to be king over all of the little critters, and he doesn't have to compete with any other humans (the Pevensies were just visiting and were already over their rulership and aren't going to rebel against Aslan and rob Caspian) Wuk Lamat is unlikeable, incompetent, and fails to justify why she should be leader over anyone else, let alone her two more capable brothers.

[fioravictorine]

Lyse didn't go 'Zenos, listen to me!' and continue to beat the crap out of him alone in the final trial so she is better in my books

Come to think of it, if Wuk is in Endwalker she would've also broke through space and time to killsteal both Endsinger and Zenos